Kantei is easy

[Jean]

How NBTHK can kantei?

 

is kantei so easy, when we refer to Tsuruta comments?

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/119465-2/

 

Tsuruta comment: « Ouei swords usually is Muji style and has Bizen style Ko-Itame-hada like this sword. »

 

My former Oei tachi signed Yasumitsu:

is it really muji?

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katanamumei-tegai-kanekiyo/
 

Tsuruta comment : Tegai’s Jigane does not have Masame Hada. It has Itame Hada and Mokume Hada. 

my former papered tegai Kanekiyo:

 

 

my former NBTHK papered Kanekiyo is pure masame with sayagaki by Honma Junji and Michihiro Tanobe to Hosho. NBTHK overpassed Honma Junji and Michihiro Tanobe’s opinion..for Kanekiyo who according Tsuruta san did not forge in masame.

 

[Ray Singer]

"What the title promised you Kantei is Easy is true. All that you have to do is study a little, and remember a few simple rules. Of course you also must remember the 45,000,000 exceptions to the rules." - Jim Kurrasch

 

Said well by Jim above. When I saw your post title, I thought it was a link to this article from Jim below. 

https://swordsofjapan.com/kantei-is-easy/

 

 

[b.hennick]

Kantei is easy when you do not know much.

In fact it may take years to get the period of making the sword correct. Learning the gokaden (five main schools) seems to be easy but it is not. There is also a sixth school - shinto. 

In my sword club we do group kantei. The groups (two or three groups of 5-6 people) discuss each sword and tries to come to consensus. After discussing each sword, the group reaches a decision on each blade. Next each sword is discussed in turn. The groups present their decision and reasoning. The person who is running the meeting talks about the choices made and adds information to confirm the kantei. People learn from the kantei.

My best learning experience occurred when Michael Haggenbush discussed the kantei of swords that we tried to kantei ourselves. Michael, would read our answer and then explain what we saw and what we missed. It was amazing. I miss Michael. He taught me at every show we both attended. He was amazing at kantei.

[Rivkin]

I would echo Tsuruta's comments with a few add ons.

It is uncommon to see really tight, uniform itame in Bizen blades past Oei. That does not mean that all or most Oei blades are in tight itame, but that just a language phrasing issue.

 

On Kanekiyo, its often a default judgement for a post-1320 tegai blade, instead of writing something like "ko tegai". They do have a large portion of blades that don't have any prominent  masame and very little hotsure. Not much Yamato frankly, boshi, high shinogi are probably the only things remaining... and there are not that many good suguha alternatives from the period. Ryokai and Echizen Rai...

There are late Tegai blades papered to Kanekiyo that are pure masame, but they are not common and tend to be on the very top in terms of quality for this attribution.

[Jean]

Hi Ray,

 

I titled this topic remembering Jim article 🙂

[Vermithrax16]

Indeed Jean.

[Jean]

Yes, and the main problem comes from the fact that NBTHK does not precize in the kanteisho the smith generation.

First generation Kanekiyo forged in Masame.

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/yam8.htm

KANEKIYO(1) -1326- KA-REKI (f: KANENAGA 1): Made HIRA-TSUKURI, UCHI-ZORI         MITSU-MUNE TANTO. Running MASAME veiled in JI-NIE and          NIE-UTSURI. HADA shows CHIKEI.          Shallow NOTARE KO-GUNOME HA in KO-NIE and NIOI. SUNAGASHI         and KINSUJI.         BOSHI runs TOGARI on the grain, with HAKIKAKE-KAERI.          KURIJIRI NAKAGO with HIGAKI YASURI. 

[Jacques D.]

On 2/3/2022 at 3:57 PM, Jean said:

 

First generation Kanekiyo forged in Masame.

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/yam8.htm

KANEKIYO(1) -1326- KA-REKI (f: KANENAGA 1): Made HIRA-TSUKURI, UCHI-ZORI         MITSU-MUNE TANTO. Running MASAME veiled in JI-NIE and          NIE-UTSURI. HADA shows CHIKEI.          Shallow NOTARE KO-GUNOME HA in KO-NIE and NIOI. SUNAGASHI         and KINSUJI.         BOSHI runs TOGARI on the grain, with HAKIKAKE-KAERI.          KURIJIRI NAKAGO with HIGAKI YASURI. 

 

Exceptionally... 

 

To my knowledge, there is only one tachi signed by Kanekyio forged in masame, all the others are in itame mixed with more or less masame. I would like to see others with only masame

[Jussi Ekholm]

It is interesting and really complicated subject. I would follow up with what Jacques wrote above.

 

So far I have only found 2 signed tachi by Tegai Kanekiyo and both are suriage.

 

One is 69,5 cm and passed Jūyō 35. This is pointed as late Nanbokuchō work, and described having (板目肌つみごころとなり) Itame hada "becoming insdiscreet" I am not sure if it could be translated like that.

Second is 62,1 cm and I am not sure of the provenance of this but is featured in Tōken Bijutsu 377 and on Tanobe's Yamato-den book. This is considered to be Ōei work and described as having masame hada.

 

While it does not happen everytime I believe NBTHK somewhat often state in their papers late Nanbokuchō to Ōei for mumei swords they attribute towards Tegai Kanekiyo - Mumei [手掻包清 - 時代南北朝末期乃至応永]. I am personally liking a lot that they are adding these informations in brackets.

[Jean]

Just to precise, my former NBTHK Kanekiyo blade, had 2 sayagaki one by Honma Junji and the other one by Tanobe sensei, both to Hosho. It is very very rare that NBTHK overwrites Honma Junji opinion (without mentionning Tanobe). It happens more often with Kanzan Sato’s.

[Rivkin]

I have Oei or at least early Muromachi signed Kanekiyo. Itame dominated, except for nagare and some masame in shinogi-ji. Seen a dozen of Nambokucho examples, though all mumei - pretty similar. His attribution is not liked because the tempering is also not in a strong nie, it almost crosses into nioi. This being said I have seen later Tegai blades of almost any appearance getting Kanekiyo papers, including strongly masame-influenced ones.

 

Re:Tanobe versus shinsa opinions, my observation is that they are as of now completely divorced. Unfortunately he does not issue sayagaki to most people pre-shinsa, in order to not create a lot of contradictions, but all six of his opinions that I personally solicited in the past 2 years were all opposite of shinsa. Shinsa being on a very conservative side. Hosho (close to the top of Yamato attributions) versus Kanekiyo (sorry to say - the bottom of Yamato) is an example of such.

My experience outside of nihonto was always that the practice of issuing paper corrupts. One either becomes very liberal, attracting a lot of money, or very conservative, thus enjoying the reputation of someone who "really knows", after gimei-ing blades approved by others.

 

Both NTHK groups now also changed their leading actors and my experience so far was already more negative.

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think it is a nice sword regardless of whom made it. I can understand the Hoshō attribution very well and due to the strong masame I would personally have gone that was too. As I do not know the fine details amongst various Yamato smiths, going default to Hoshō with strong masame would be my guess.

 

However I think one obstacle in identification is the extremely small number of signed tachi from Hoshō school. I think I have 3 so far, Jūyō Bijutsuhin by Sadayoshi, Tokubetsu Jūyō by Sadaoki and Jūyō Bunkazai by Sadatsugu.

 

I feel regardless of the attributions (good or bad) it is sometimes very fun trying to figure out what would be the factors that made shinsa team (or someone else) choose that specific attribution.

[Tom Darling]

On 2/6/2022 at 12:36 PM, Rivkin said:

I have Oei or at least early Muromachi signed Kanekiyo. Itame dominated, except for nagare and some masame in shinogi-ji. Seen a dozen of Nambokucho examples, though all mumei - pretty similar. His attribution is not liked because the tempering is also not in a strong nie, it almost crosses into nioi. This being said I have seen later Tegai blades of almost any appearance getting Kanekiyo papers, including strongly masame-influenced ones.

 

Re:Tanobe versus shinsa opinions, my observation is that they are as of now completely divorced. Unfortunately he does not issue sayagaki to most people pre-shinsa, in order to not create a lot of contradictions, but all six of his opinions that I personally solicited in the past 2 years were all opposite of shinsa. Shinsa being on a very conservative side. Hosho (close to the top of Yamato attributions) versus Kanekiyo (sorry to say - the bottom of Yamato) is an example of such.

My experience outside of nihonto was always that the practice of issuing paper corrupts. One either becomes very liberal, attracting a lot of money, or very conservative, thus enjoying the reputation of someone who "really knows", after gimei-ing blades approved by others.

 

Both NTHK groups now also changed their leading actors and my experience so far was already more negative.

You Nailed it.

On 2/6/2022 at 12:36 PM, Rivkin said:

 

 

 

[Tom Darling]

I don't know how to submit my reply to Rivkin, 'You nailed it'