What did they do with yari/naginata saya?

[JH Lee]

Something I've always wondered--

 

Unlike katana/wakizashi, where the saya remain in the obi after unsheathing, the saya of the yari and naginata are not worn on the person.

 

What did samurai do when they needed to unsheath their yari/naginata for battle?  Toss the saya into a collective bin and sort through them later?  Toss them on the ground and hopefully find them afterwards?  Squeeze them into the right side of the obi?

 

I'd imagine the samurai who could afford the fancier stuff also had other retainers/assistants to hold onto those things for them.  But what did everybody else do?  

[Gakusee]

The retainers were issued with the spears ready for battle out of the arsenal. Then they marched in formation or patrolled the castle. 

[Brian]

Damn good question!
I assume they were stored in the saya, but assuming they didn't march off to battle with the saya on the table in the castle....did they just put them in a pile before the battle?
Thanks for a topic I had never even thought of. Looking forward to theories. I have seen one or 2 yari saya with a round hook on it, but there is no way they just hung them from the belt or something. Hmmm

[Bugyotsuji]

An interesting question.

This is only for reference. I have a jingama/kusari gama with its original lacquered leather saya. Since I had a shirasaya made for it, the battered leather saya became redundant, and at once tempting to throw away.

Were such flimsy saya pushed into the obi or inserted into the clothing for actual fighting?

Could it be that there was a cottage industry for sewing and lacquering functional but protective leather saya, and that these unimposing things were mostly discarded in favo(u)r of something more splendid later on?

[Brian]

But let's consider all of those fancy yari and naginata saya. The ones with bear fur and fancy mon on them or crackle finishes or expensive laquerwork. They can't all have been just for display? I am sure many of them were used for battle. So assuming they didn't go to battle with the blades exposed and rusting, where did they put those?
I find it a fascinating subject.
 

[Bugyotsuji]

Presumably the troops slept in barracks or tents, with a roll-up goza/mushiro mat and some few belongings and changes of clothing. When they put on their armour each morning, they would leave behind a personal bundle…

[sabiji]

Most of the Yari mounts we know are from the Edo period, and then often from a late phase. Especially the somewhat representative pieces with coats of arms and conspicuous lacquering were mainly worn by the traveling entourage of the Sankin-Kotei system. Or even at all other public appearances of a clan, an authority or Daimyo family. When I think of some yari saya in various forms, it is impossible to stuff them into the obi.

I suspect that the average yari of the Sengoku Jidai had either no saya at all as an arsenal weapon, or very simple covers made of wood, lacquered leather or lacquered papier-mâché. Of course, the better yari will have had corresponding mounts in the form of the saya, on which the style of the mounts of the Edo period will ultimately have been based.

But as others have written here: in anticipation of battle, the saya will have been omitted from the beginning.

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

23 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

When they put on their armour each morning, they would leave behind a personal bundle…

That seems most logical. If they didn't live through the battle, the troops wouldn't care whether their yari was back in saya.

 

But that makes me wonder about the "secondary market" for yari, swords, etc. that were picked up from the battlefield. Hundreds or thousands of weapons must have provided a never-ending business for those recovering them.

[mas4t0]

That's a very interesting point Ken.

 

It makes me wonder if there was any social or religious taboo in Japan regarding such practices.

 

I'm reminded of an influential early fifth century Latin text, authored by Prudentius, named the Psychomachia. Where looting from the corpses of dead soldiers is said to be abominable.

 

I can't help but wonder if the Japanese had moral qualms and/ or superstitions regarding such things.

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, this is a huge subject which is why I have deliberately refrained from saying anything.

[mas4t0]

1 minute ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Yes, this is a huge subject which is why I have deliberately refrained from saying anything.

 

Could you suggest any references which an English person or an optimistic Japanese 4-year old might be able to understand?

[Peter Bleed]

Bushi with polearms weren't expected to survive. They needed no provision for preserving their weapon.

That may be why - in collecting values - naginata are considered below katana, and yari are, well, just not there.

Peter

[FZ1]

 

As  suggested by the OP, for yari carried by samurai, their retainers/assistants might have looked after the saya, but perhaps the ashigaru had the cheap & cheerful leather ones, so they just stuffed those in their clothing?

 

Jon

 

[Mark S.]

4 hours ago, mas4t0 said:

 

I can't help but wonder if the Japanese had moral qualms and/ or superstitions regarding such things.

 

My initial reaction (and it is only an opinion, I have no references one way or the other to back it up), is that whether or not there were moral and/or superstitious beliefs, that there are always some motivated beyond morals and superstitions when profit is the end goal.  There have always been battlefield profiteers, grave/tomb robbers, criminals, dirt-poor peasants trying to survive, etc that are willing to risk punishment and ‘eternal damnation’… whatever their motivations.  

[mas4t0]

6 hours ago, Mark S. said:

My initial reaction (and it is only an opinion, I have no references one way or the other to back it up), is that whether or not there were moral and/or superstitious beliefs, that there are always some motivated beyond morals and superstitions when profit is the end goal.  There have always been battlefield profiteers, grave/tomb robbers, criminals, dirt-poor peasants trying to survive, etc that are willing to risk punishment and ‘eternal damnation’… whatever their motivations.  

 

I completely agree, I'm not disputing that it happened, just curious as to what the repercussions of doing so were believed to be.

 

I'm also curious now as to whether there were rituals or other practices that could be carried out to spiritually purify the blades.

 

Would it have massively devalued the weapons otherwise?

 

Would there have been consequences for possession of these items (among the lower classes) if they were to collect them with the intent to sell (presumably possession of polearms by those of lower classes would be punished)?

 

The Japanese seen to have been quite a superstitious bunch, and I'd have thought that it would have been undesirable to have your troops armed with such weapons in the absence of some kind of purification ritual.

 

Or does the bad karma fall solely on the looter and not pass along with the weapon?

 

I'm not expecting answers to any of this, just thinking out loud.

[Wolfmanreid]

4 hours ago, Peter Bleed said:

Bushi with polearms weren't expected to survive. They needed no provision for preserving their weapon.

That may be why - in collecting values - naginata are considered below katana, and yari are, well, just not there.

Peter

My understanding is that Naginata were considered a primary weapon for warriors in the period of the Genpei War and later in the Kamakura period, and were only later supplanted in status.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen a depiction of a Naginata Saya in contemporary art showing battles from the period however. 

Much later at the end of the Muromachi era Miyamoto Musashi specifically mentions his preference for the Naginata as a weapon for real battle (as opposed to duels) and that he killed quite a number of men with a naginata during the Seige of Gifu Castle and in other battles he fought in (I believe he was in 6 total including Sekigahara, although that last one is subject to some doubt).  He never mentions what he did with his saya unfortunately. 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

10 hours ago, mas4t0 said:

 

Could you suggest any references which an English person or an optimistic Japanese 4-year old might be able to understand?

Going off-thread here a bit, not discussing what happened to yari saya. Apologies! 

 

The simplest answer to this question about residual battlefield weapons, Mark, is no, not off-hand. Things I have heard over the years would need pulling together inside my head, and I am far too lazy to sit down and do that! I have enjoyed reading the intervening answers, as there is no one-size-fits-all answer, and folks is folks.

 

The quick answer is that when your enemy has obviously lost the battle, they will in many cases throw down their weapons and be captured, or  try to escape. To the victor go the spoils.

 

The Mongols had strict rules that every scrap of metal on the battlefield was to be collected up and handed to the authorities.  In Japan the victorious general would have given orders regarding clean-up of the battlefield. In fact both generals may have taken a sum of money in advance from specialized merchants' agents who travelled with them and had undertaken to (mend, fix) look after everything.

 

On an individual level between high ranking samurai, you could collect your opponent's head and sword, and your lord would confirm their identity and decide whether to reward you. It is said that after Sekigahara a huge heap of weapons and armour was buried in a pit, forming a mound, which is still underneath the present museum structure there. Also, remember that Hideyoshi periodically held nationwide arms confiscations, and this was continued by the Tokugawa regime, (and into Meiji times with national registrations of individual guns for example). Much better to have weapons stored in castle armouries, or in the houses of the Bushi, rather than in the hands of the general populace who were proving more and more fickle and liable to revolt.

[mas4t0]

27 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Going off-thread here a bit, not discussing what happened to yari saya. Apologies! 

 

The simplest answer to this question about residual battlefield weapons, Mark, is no, not off-hand. Things I have heard over the years would need pulling together inside my head, and I am far too lazy to sit down and do that! I have enjoyed reading the intervening answers, as there is no one-size-fits-all answer, and folks is folks.

 

The quick answer is that when your enemy has obviously lost the battle, they will in many cases throw down their weapons and be captured, or  try to escape. To the victor go the spoils.

 

The Mongols had strict rules that every scrap of metal on the battlefield was to be collected up and handed to the authorities.  In Japan the victorious general would have given orders regarding clean-up of the battlefield. In fact both generals may have taken a sum of money in advance from specialized merchants' agents who travelled with them and had undertaken to (mend, fix) look after everything.

 

On an individual level between high ranking samurai, you could collect your opponent's head and sword, and your lord would confirm their identity and decide whether to reward you. It is said that after Sekigahara a huge heap of weapons and armour was buried in a pit, forming a mound, which is still underneath the present museum structure there. Also, remember that Hideyoshi periodically held nationwide arms confiscations, and this was continued by the Tokugawa regime, (and into Meiji times with national registrations of individual guns for example). Much better to have weapons stored in castle armouries, or in the houses of the Bushi, rather than in the hands of the general populace who were proving more and more fickle and liable to revolt.

 

Thank you Piers, very much appreciated!

[Bugyotsuji]

Here is an illustration from a battle screen in the Osaka Castle collection which covers some of the themes in this thread.

 

You can see some unsheathed spears on the ground. Nagai Naokatsu (top right) has just killed Ikeda Tsuneoki/Nobuteru (left), and used Tsuneoki's black Horo (see basketwork) as a furoshiki to to carry his head in. (See the blood soak underneath). He is also carrying an extra sword trophy, Tsuneoki's famously sharp 'Sasa no Yuki'.

 

 

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yes, thanks, Piers.

[steveingall239]

Hi Sorry to pick up such an old thread , but just wanted to add my thoughts! My little fetish is Yari Saya I have a few now , and a large majority of them have a small copper loop a bit like a cotterpin . These allowed the Saya to hang from the do- gane by a small chain . 
regards 

Steve 

[Bugyotsuji]

That’s new to me, Steve. Where did you find that information, if you don’t mind my asking? I had assumed the little loop was for the yari-jirushi, but if there are always  two of them…

[Tensho]

As Piers said, I always assumed these were for hanging banners off of. 

 

Hanging a wood saya off an Ebu would destroy it in any form of conflict. I think its safe to assume leather or cloth Saya were used. I have seen multiples of them for Naginata and Yari. 

[IBot]

The use of yari were the result of te aftermath of the Onin wars when so many traditional armies were decimated and those left to look after the estates of the nobles usurped control - gekokujo. The forces these usurpers could muster were low ranking soldiers, peasants anf farmers out to better their lot. Yari were weapons they could master in a short time. They also had the advantage of being effective against the samurai's lamellar armour, smashing through the scales by breaking the thongs holding the in rows. It was this that led to the introduction of plate armours. 

The 'Book of Common Soldiers' shows all the yari with proper lacquered wood scabbards - so I assume they were used at all times except when sctually fighting. None of those depicted are particularly fancy shapes.

Ian Bottomley 

[SteveM]

Found almost the exact same question on Japanese Yahoo.

The two posters who responded both said the saya for these polearms were stuck into the belt/obi of the bearer when in use on the battlefield. 

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1040942925

 

(So, basically what Piers suggested a few days ago). 

 

Obviously some random posters on a public forum is not a scholarly or definitive response to the original question, but it is a very plausible and sensible explanation.

[Jacques D.]

The yari of the ashigaru had no saya (some were only pointed bamboos). Note that many of these yaris have lost their hamon because the ashigaru used them to fan the fires.