Tsuba casting molds ?

[KungFooey]

51 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Thanks, Dee, for letting me know that some people are overly obsessed with finding out information about someone else!

 

Heck, I should feel honored that you were so interested to find out information about me!

 

Thanks!

 

Also, several people review their own stuff on Amazon to generate interest.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that, so why must you belittle me for doing it?  I mean it seems to me that you are really trying hard to put me down, by posting all the stuff that you did about Amazon!

 

And thanks for your post referring to both my books.  Maybe now someone will actually purchase one copy of either of them on Amazon!  Although forum members can get more information just reading this thread.  Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

Maybe next time, it would just be better to keep the background information you find out on people to yourself.

 

How many others on this forum have you found out information about?

 

And yes, this thread is probably an obsession with me.  But who are you to say that it is leading nowhere fast!

 

Also, I am very confident about my own theory and argument.

 

Hey, when you have authored a thread that has generated a whole lot of interest (with over 30.8 thousand views) then maybe you will be speaking from experience!

 

Merry Christmas!

Ouch! Touched a nerve, didn't I? 

 

I'm pretty sure news stories about Kim Jong Un's nonsensical ranting total way over "30.8 thousand views" - doesn't actually mean anyone agrees with him. 😉

 

Merry Christmas Dan.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, it was stated in a previous post here by a member that-

“I do respect your interest in this field but it honestly feels like you're trying to ram it down everyone else's throats.”

Remember, nobody is forced to read this thread!  People are doing that all on their own!

If they feel that I am ramming the information down their throats, then just don’t read the thread!

Simple!

Onward!

[Tensho]

On 12/25/2024 at 1:00 AM, Brian said:

Dan,
Do me a favour please. Take a confirmed (modern copy is fine) cast tsuba, take a punch, and punch around the nakago ana heavily to deform the metal like many of these you post.
Tell us if the metal deforms nicely and changes shape, or if it crumbles and bits fall off.

For educational purpose I went ahead and did this for everyone to see. This was one blow with a pointed punch and framing hammer.

 

For reference this tsuba came out of Japan in a lot with genuine tsuba. I knew it was cast as you can see the sekigane are cast with the tsuba. 

[Dan tsuba]

OMG Matt!

Super cool!

So what do you think the results show?

I mean the tsuba looks like it could be hand forged, but evidently it isn't!

Are you just a rebel like I am?

Do you have any idea what your experimental test will show to others?

Remember, you are messing with a multi-million dollar a year world business!

So do you agree with my posts on this thread or not?

You said the sekagane are cast with the tsuba.  Did you mean the tagane-ato punch marks?

I don't care!  Just the fact that you did the experiment is great!

Get ready for the downvotes!

Thank you so much for taking the time to verify what I have been trying to tell others for almost 3 years!

Onward!

With respect,

Dan

 

[Steves87]

Good experiment! You have definitely proved that the (mostly known) theory of tagane ato being added, will crack a cast Tsuba.

However, we don't know when this Tsuba was made.... which I believe is the whole point of this thread.

Is there a confirmed date for this Tsuba? I know it "looks old" but that doesn't mean it wasn't made in 1911. My father inlaw still has cast farm machinery components (used in orchard grading conveyors) made just after WW1 which look to have basically the same patina. Testing for the age of this Tsuba is the only way to prove anything for this thread... until then, we are basically still were we were on page 1.

 

We know there are cast Tsuba, some will definitely be antiques in their own right now that we are almost in 2025... but were they made prior to the invasion of westerners, or were they made as a way of making money and producing them fast to keep up with western tourist demand?

Or did the kettle makers whip a few out here and there... I would have, but different times, different cultures....

[Dan tsuba]

No!

Tagane-ato could have been added with the cast iron tsuba annealed and re-heated.

What Matt has shown is that a tsuba that appears to be hand forged is actually cast iron!

And no, we don't know when the tsuba was made.

Unless carbon dating is done, the flat-earthers will always be out there!

My opinion!

[Steves87]

No, Dan, we knew the Tsuba was cast because of the cast top sekigane... that is why our bro did the test

Edited December 27, 2024 by Steves87
Addwd

[Tensho]

30 minutes ago, Steves87 said:

Good experiment! You have definitely proved that the (mostly known) theory of tagane ato being added, will crack a cast Tsuba.

However, we don't know when this Tsuba was made.... which I believe is the whole point of this thread.

I posted this in response to Brian's comment. That yes, taking a punch to a cast iron tsuba will have negative effects. 

 

I haven't seen anyone attempt such things only speculation.  And no, there's no way to know when this was made. 

[Dan tsuba]

I don't know!

I can't see a cast sekigane in the pictures.  All I see is tagane-ato.

It doesn't matter.

Matt has shown that a tsuba that appears to be hand forged is actually cast.

What is the problem?

We can debate age of the tsuba and no one will ever figure it out!

This tsuba stuff is  a mulit-million dollar a year world wide business!

No one will admit anything for fear of disrupting the status quo!

Let the downvotes continue!

 

[Steves87]

Dan, the problem is that we knew the Tsuba was cast, we knew the theory of adverse effects, we tested the adverse affects theory and proved it... but we have no idea when the Tsuba was made... I thought the whole aim is to prove cast Tsuba were made in the Edo period? We have no idea when this Tsuba was made, and it is quite literally stupid to assume it was made in the Edo period. This test does not contribute to that discussion (cast Tsuba made in the Edo) other than reinforcing a call for further testing... which we knew all along at the beginning of the thread.

P.s. I can see a cast sekigane, and the owner can in hand too

Edited December 27, 2024 by Steves87
Added

[ROKUJURO]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

......a tsuba that appears to be hand forged.....

...to a blind person.

[Dan tsuba]

So, there we go!

Stephen said I was stupid (although I never said the tsuba was made in the Edo period, only carbon dating can prove that).

And then Jean (always good for belittlling people-he probably considers himself one of the gate-keepers of this forum) stated that I am blind!

Thanks guys!

Do you know what KMA means?!

No?  Figure it out!

 

[Steves87]

I didn't say you were stupid... if you assume it was made in the Edo period though, then yes, yes I did.

[Brian]

Dan, you are missing the point entirely. This isn't proving your point...it's proving the opposite. That many of these tsuba you claim are cast, showing dubious "casting flaws" and tagane ato not cast into the tsuba, are NOT cast.
And forget that whole "annealed and reheated" nonsense. If someone casts tsuba, it's to make them cheap and fast. Additional processes just add expense and time, and make it pointless.
That tsuba was obviously cast. Thank you Matt for doing that, it is a huge help, well done.
I suspect tsuba like that one were either made for display, cheap mounting or deliberate deception. They didn't take too much care cleaning up the insides of the sukashi, as that would have taken more time and expense, which goes against the point of cast tsuba.

[KungFooey]

On 12/27/2024 at 8:37 AM, Dan tsuba said:

No!

Tagane-ato could have been added with the cast iron tsuba annealed and re-heated.

What Matt has shown is that a tsuba that appears to be hand forged is actually cast iron!

And no, we don't know when the tsuba was made.

Unless carbon dating is done, the flat-earthers will always be out there!

My opinion!

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

[Brian]

https://www.facebook.../share/p/19hgyq8Na8/

[Dan tsuba]

Well, off topic here.

 

But it was stated in a previous post that-

 

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

 

Well below is my Christmas gift to myself, a digital microscope!  It takes great pictures!

 

Maybe it will help me to see!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

[Alex A]

Reminded of the saying that people see what they want to see,

 

Its a free world, some folks even think the world is flat, even in this modern age.

 

Dan, you are free to think what you want to think, just remember that folks wont always agree with you.

 

[Dereks]

I’m really tired of seeing this thread pop up everyday.

 

 

[zanilu]

1 minute ago, Dereks said:

I’m really tired of seeing this thread pop up everyday

Me too...

 

 

[1kinko]

I guess we've got to side track this into religion or politics to get it closed!

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, 1kinko said:

I guess we've got to side track this into religion or politics to get it closed!

I thought this was already the site for "New Age Tsubaology"? Why do you think I wear the silly hat! 

 

Don't even ask about the tsuba - it is definitely cast!!!!   

[Dan tsuba]

Firstly, if you do not want to see possible cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period then just move on.

 

Secondly, this is not my research.

 

https://emuseum.corn...quadrifoil-ken-tsuba

 

https://emuseum.corn...ozi-and-reclining-ox

[Steves87]

Dan, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if you can find more cast Tsuba in museum collections and cross reference them with: donor life span, donation date, and date donor likely acquired them (by known expeditions).... you may get closer to an edo period 'confirmed' casting. There are a lot of museum collections that hold Tsuba acquired by westerners pre-1900... the major museums will likely have larger collections and better records, but there will be a ton more smaller museums which are more likely to hold cast Tsuba. Might be a wild goose chase, but you might also discover a cast Tsuba that was acquired during an expedition shortly after the mid 1880's, that eventually ended up as a museum donation.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Steves87
More

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

https://emuseum.corn...ozi-and-reclining-ox

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, about that reclining ox tsuba.

 

I have included information (from a link) and pictures from two museums and a dealer that were shown on current previous threads (the last picture -from Jauce-which shows that particular reclining ox tsuba is broken and appears to be made from cast iron).

 

What is of interest is that the nakago-ana on all of these tsuba show a distinctive bottle type shape which (I have found) is often found on cast iron tsuba.

 

I am not saying that the information included with the tsuba by the museums, or the dealer, is correct.

 

But the information on that tsuba (information below and the first picture shown) from Cornell University is interesting!

 

Onward!

 

 

Cornell University Museum-

Openwork tsuba with scene of Roshi (Laozi) and reclining ox

Date Edo period, 18th century

Medium- Iron

Dimensions2 3/4 × 2 5/8 inches (7 × 6.7 cm)

Culture Japan

Classifications Armor

Credit Line Memorial gift from the Estate of Charles W. Hay, Class of 1925

 

 

 

 

[Dereks]

It popped up again  

[Alex A]

Dan, whats "bottle type" ?

 

New to me that one.

 

Edit, see what you mean now, like old milk bottles.

[MauroP]

Thanks God a piece of useful information from this thread: Cornell University is confirmed an unreliable place to go for tosogu studies!

[Dan tsuba]

Very funny Mauro!

But tell that to Cornell University!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!