Tsuba casting molds ?

[Dan tsuba]

My friends, as an addendum to my above post (since there are only "the sounds of crickets" here)-

 

Let me try to explain to you how “scholarly research” works.

 

I have an opinion or thought that is backed up with my “stated reference” (or references).  Specifically stating the reference referred to and the page number (or numbers).

 

If you disagree with my “stated reference”, then you need to state your own “stated reference” (or references) that contradicts mine.

 

Otherwise, you are just stating “opinions” that are not “backed up” by “stated references”.

 

Similar to several times where a “jeweler” by trade (who now makes tsuba – and placed a “beating a dead horse” emoji on one of his posts to this thread) has only stated opinions not backed up by any “stated references”.

 

The fact that you can “yell louder than me” means nothing!  It only verifies to me your “frustration” in that you cannot find any “stated references” to contradict mine.

 

There is an old saying that goes something like this “back it up or back off”.

 

Dan

[Ford Hallam]

Hitchin's razor "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."^[1][2][3] The razor was created by and named after author and journalist Christopher Hitchens (1949–2011). It implies that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it. 

 

 

[Ford Hallam]

And to clarify, assuming reasonably that I'm the "jeweller who also makes tsuba" in the dock, not sure why Jeweller is in quotes though.

 

I've been a practicing goldsmith for over 43 years, 30 of those as a master goldsmith. 25 years additionally specialising in classical Japanese metal work. Advising The British museum, The V&A, The Ashmolean museum, The Boston Museum of Fine arts on matters pertaining to Japanese metalwork conservation and interpretation. Presently refining a paper I delivered in Turin in July at the behest of the Getty Foundation on the technical aspects of the 2000 year old Mensa Iasica and advising/guiding a program of analytical research on tosogu in Oxford to investigate specific issues with traditional metallurgy etc. (The Fitzwilliam Museum) Also the recipient of  7 gold prizes in the annual sword making competitions in Japan. 

 

There's obviously some more but this ought to be enough, Dan, to let you know that, despite your complete ignorance of my qualifications or academic standing in this field, I take my work seriously and apparently so do serious people, who matter.

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Ford my friend,

 

Blah, blah, blah-

 

There you go again!

 

And I quote "Dan, to let you know that, despite your complete ignorance of my qualifications or academic standing in this field, I take my work seriously and apparently so do serious people, who matter.

 

No I am not "ignorant",  I read your bio! 

 

So, I do not "matter"!

 

You always have to "put people down"!  What is up with that!  With your ego you probably need a chainsaw to get your overinflated "big ego head" through a doorway!

 

I have a Masters degree.  That is at least 5 years of formal academic training at a University.

 

How many years do you have? 

 

Anyway, this is off topic.  When you want to get back to "reality" we can do that.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Ford Hallam said:

 "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

Dear Ford and others - can you read?

Dan has repeatedly delivered his evidence and as he points out contradictory "evidence" [not opinion] has been lacking. 

Ford the Hitchin's razor does not apply because evidence has been presented - dismissing it merely proves you can't learn something new or that it contradicts your own personal prejudices.

All qualifications aside - I know of very many "educated" people who don't know their bum from their elbow and would need help to tie their shoe laces. 

[1kinko]

Dan blah blah blah. I have an AS, BS, MS, PhD, 3 years in Post-Doc and over 40 peer-reviewed publications. So what? I don’t have 40+ years in Japanese metallurgy or tosogu experience. Neither do you. We’ve already been through your cherry-picked sentences, questionable translations, and your cast iron bottle opener. Still zero evidence of cast iron tsuba from the Edo period that was verified made in Japan. Still waiting for you to show us how your carve cast iron.

[Spartancrest]

 

6 hours ago, 1kinko said:

how your carve cast iron.    [ps. that should be 'you']

More Blah to get your head around: There are no hidden secrets involved, annealing has been discussed at length before. 

https://www.industri...atment-of-cast-irons

Heat Treatment of Cast Iron

The types of heat treatments for cast irons involve stress relief, annealing, normalizing and hardening (quench and temper). In each of these processes, it is important to understand the materials’ response to its heat-treat process parameters (time, temperature and atmosphere).

 

Stress Relief

The need for stress relief is due to internal (residual) stress in the castings, which is often the result of cooling a complex or intricate shape or one with radical changes in cross-sectional area. In stress relief, the time-temperature relationship plays a significant role (Fig. 5, online), and higher temperatures will affect mechanical properties and often require the use of protective atmosphere to avoid oxidation.

Soak time at temperature is in the order of 1.5 hours per 25.4 mm (1 inch) of cross-sectional area for sections over 50 mm (2 inches) and 1 hour per 25.4 mm (1 inch) of cross-sectional area below this thickness. The cooling rate is also important, with furnace cooling to 260°C (500°F) adequate for most castings. However, those with intricate shapes should be cooled to 95°C (200°F).

 

Annealing

The annealing process is applied to castings primarily to improve machinability by softening the material. In the case of ductile iron, increases in ductility and impact resistance often result. 

[Spartancrest]

By the way "Qualifications" does not equate to "Proof" - You would think that an educated person or persons would know that! 

[Ford Hallam]

Actually Dan, you were ignorant, as are most people, of the full range of my relevant 'qualifications' because I haven't previously published details on them. So claiming you knew because you read my bio is not accurate.

 

I might add 18 and more years specialising in the restoration of some of the finest Japanese metalwork to pass through London and New York sale rooms.  This including a significant amount of the celebrated Khallili collection (including some of the very important Islamic collection), the Johnson collection in Boston and even items now in the Sannenzaka Museum in Kyoto.

 

My partner, Bella, and I have also created and made freely available on-line over 100 hours of detailed film instruction on the technical and aesthetic aspects of the tradition. Can I ask what you've added to our collective understanding?, seeing as how you're so quick to try and dismiss my efforts.

 

Like when you try to diminish me in this ongoing discussion by describing me as "... a “jeweler” by trade (who now makes tsuba ..." ,

 

note again the use of scare quotation marks around the word, jeweller , 

 

Quote

Quotation marks around single words can occasionally be used for emphasis, but only when quoting a word or term someone else used. Usually, this implies that the author doesn’t agree with the use of the term.

source: https://www.grammarl...round-a-single-word/

 

Yet you present yourself as the victim here whenever your ideas are challenged. You inevitably resort to attacking the person of those who disagree with you rather than simply dealing with the ideas and questions raised. 

 

Quote

You always have to "put people down"!  What is up with that!  With your ego you probably need a chainsaw to get your overinflated "big ego head" through a doorway!

 

Yes Dan, it's my over-inflated ego that's driven me for over 40 years to improve my craft and understanding of the field. Everything I've toiled at over the past 40 years was just to feed my ego and to annoy an anonymous bloke somewhere in the USA. And obviously your observation that (I) "probably need a chainsaw to get your overinflated "big ego head" through a doorway!"  wasn't in any way meant as a put down... . 

 

To be blunt this does unfortunately make you look a bit like an on-line troll in that you are effectively anonymous, you can and do say and act however you please here with no consequence to your real world person.

 

I present myself in front of anyone on-line who cares, in the full light of day, flaws, failings and all. If you Dan, wanted to confront me face to face you can. Our business is easily accessible on Instagram and Facebook and the address is on Google Maps. Who and what I am is a matter of public record. But you remain safe and comfortable in the shadows taking pot shots when ever and at whomever you please. Perhaps, if you want to "matter" it's time to be honest and open and stand by your claims and theories. I mean, how can anyone take you seriously if no-one even knows who you are, quite literally? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1kinko]

Yes Dan , you are right ‘

[ROKUJURO]

10 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

.....

Heat Treatment of Cast Iron

 

Stress Relief

 

Annealing

 

Dale,

technically, this is of course correct; it is part of modern science and metallurgy.

But in all seriousness: do you really believe this was done on a large scale with low-end decoation TSUBA in EDO JIDAI?

[zanilu]

I do not like the personal turn this discussion is taking...

 

Usually if you go from quite discussion and reasoning to a personal attack this does not put you in a good light. 

 

This said in this thread I have seen no proof about cast iron tsuba that will stand a peer review in the achademic and scientific sense of the term. The original iphothesis has been assumed right and then all the efforts have been put in proving it right regardless of the objections and counter reasoning. 

 

Unfortunately this is most of the case in our hobby since not much scientific publication are devoted to it. We can at most propose educated guesses and deduction that cannot be proven or disproven. 

 

The opinion of Ford is not equivalent to a scientific proof, but considering his experience and that he has probably seen more extremely high end tusba in his life than all of us put together, it has an enormous weight.

 

Regards

Luca

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Luca!

 

I understand and appreciate what you have stated in your post.

 

And I agree with you that Ford “has probably seen more extremely high end tsuba in his life than all of us put together”.

 

Although it is my understanding that cast iron tsuba were never considered “high end” tsuba.

 

Could anyone actually differentiate between an extremely well-made cast iron tsuba and a well-made hand forged tsuba?

 

As I have stated previously (several times in this thread) I feel the only way that a determination could be made is to subject the piece to non-invasive metallurgical testing (I refer you to Dr. Lissenden's thesis paper and quotes stated in one of my previous posts - to be found on page 12 of this thread - his entire thesis can be found on line).

 

Until that can be done (or someone is willing to take a hammer to a possible cast iron tsuba!) I think that it would be extremely difficult to make an accurate determination.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

do you really believe this was done on a large scale with low-end decoation TSUBA in EDO JIDAI?

Can you "Prove" these weren't?

I really don't understand the hostility to the idea that the very clever Japanese craftsmen knew how to 'dress up' cast items, when at the time they were world leaders in metal work? What possible pain can it cause anyone today to accede to the facts? Is it fear of not getting enough money from selling what turns out to be 'inferior' products? Is it bolstering the belief that "my" collection is perfect and does not have any cast pieces? What is it that people are so afraid of? 

[1kinko]

IMHO it seems like an attempt to increase the value of inferior tsuba.

[Spartancrest]

18 minutes ago, 1kinko said:

an attempt to increase the value of inferior tsuba.

You just have it back the front - sellers are trying to get more than they are worth!

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, zanilu said:

his experience and that he has probably seen more extremely high end tusba in his life than all of us put together, it has an enormous weight.

Perhaps true but we are yet again - NOT DEALING WITH HIGH END TSUBA - The expert opinion on onions cannot tell us who grew the best oranges!

[1kinko]

And the proud buyer of cheap tsuba who’s never handled a tsuba blank or tagane knows nothing at all except how to speculate.

[Spartancrest]

32 minutes ago, 1kinko said:

who’s never handled a tsuba blank or tagane knows nothing at all except how to speculate.

This is speculation in itself - you have no knowledge of what other people have done - but please speculate at your leisure, hell you might even get something right once in a while. 

[1kinko]

Well I wasn’t speculating about you (unless you only buy tsuba for less than $100) but I would be interested in your experience in carving cast iron, or for that matter mild steel.

[Spartancrest]

Oh sorry, I leave all carving of cast iron strictly for the Edo period artisans. You are right though, my taste in gaudy expensive never used, tsuba looking things, stops with what the true warriors were equipped with, not what their pampered masters could afford to throw in a drawer. My budget however stretches to much more than $100. But thanks for asking.

[1kinko]

Oh, I thought the discussion was about cast iron tsuba, but now it’s about “warrior” tsuba huh? But late Edo when you speculate cast iron tsuba were manufactured was not a time of warriors, was it?  Furthermore, owning something you think was a warriors tsuba is just speculation, once again.  I will confess, having spent about 12 years making tosogu, that I recognize and prefer craftsmanship over crudity.

[Spartancrest]

Lucky you, I have perceived the same thing in people, a lot of crudity and poor taste. 

 

This thread was about evidence and proof - what has been presented is dismissed, but we have enjoyed plenty of dickering and bickering. Personal insults and showmanship abound, but have we got anywhere? 

[Dan tsuba]

Well, my friends,

 

I agree with Spartancrest and his statement quoted here-

 

“This thread was about evidence and proof - what has been presented is dismissed, but we have enjoyed plenty of dickering and bickering. Personal insults and showmanship abound, but have we got anywhere?”

 

No, we have not got anywhere because (in my opinion) “what has been presented is dismissed” because the question of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period comes down to the “dollar bill” in today’s tsuba market (I am certain that you know what I am referring to).

 

As Spartancrest also stated “Personal insults and showmanship abound….”

 

If at any time during the period that this thread has been on this forum (Janurary 2022), if anybody feels that I “insulted them” or was just showing “showmanship”- I do apologize for that.  But as we all know too well, sometimes these threads can get "a little heated"!

 

So, my friends, I am “out of here” for now.  Don’t all cheer!  Ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Evidence ?? why does all the cast Tsuba shown don’t show evidence of being mounted at some point ? 

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

why does all the cast Tsuba shown don’t show evidence of being mounted at some point ?

Why don't all carved tsuba show evidence of being mounted? Change your optometrist and actually have a look- must I show hundreds of examples - again and again - or can you LOOK

[Steves87]

I came across this post on the facebook today. Not saying these have anything to do with casting Tsuba or not, but I thought it might be ok to post here as these could be used within a process for creating moulds.

[Brian]

Not for molds, but for keeping a record of work and basically "filing" the designs.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again!

 

I decided to post more information here because of another thread that I started.  That thread is-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/47395-tsuba-purchasing-for-new-collectors/

 

There was a post by a member on the other thread which renewed my interest in this thread.

 

If you refer to one of my previous posts on this thread, you will find out about a cast iron tsuba that I have.

 

That post is on page 7 of this thread (Nov 17^th, 2022).

 

It shows and explains a tsuba in my collection.  If you look close at the pictures (I have 2 of the same tsuba) you will notice that the tsuba (specifically on the tsuba shown on the right) has faint seppa marks on the seppa-dai (referring in my response here to something that was stated on the former thread listed).

 

Now, what is also interesting is that on this thread on a post that is dated June 21^st, 2023 (page 12), I have referred to a Japanese dealer’s website.  That website is-

 

cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)

 

On that website you can see the exact same tsuba as mine and it is shown in pieces as a cast iron tsuba.

 

(Pictures of my cast iron tsuba and the dealer’s broken cast iron tsuba are attached.)

 

And on another one of my posts dated June 27^th, 2023 (page 12), you can read where I contacted the dealer and they stated-

 

“Yes, I agree with your opinion.

All the cast iron tsuba look from Edo period for my eye.

cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)

Sincerely yours.

Sumie Kashima, operator of Usagiya”

 

So, there is something for your consideration!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all-

 

So, I was looking at purchase sites the other day (my usual morning routine!) and a tsuba just “jumped out at me”!

 

A few pictures and a summation of the write up from the site are shown below.

 

Now, I can never prove it is cast iron (unless I bought it and took a hammer to it!).

 

But (in my opinion) to my eyes, it looks cast!  I arrived at that conclusion by looking at Soto school pieces in the Ashmolean Museum, The A. H. Church Collection of Japanese Sword-Guards (Tsuba) at the below link-

 

http://jameelcentre....ection/7/10237/10366

 

On the tsuba shown below, the mei looks like it was cast. 

 

Also, the nakago-ana has those (more or less) horizontal looking type slots in the top and bottom of it.  I find that those slots usually appear on cast iron tsuba, so the tagane-ato punch marks do not have to be put into the cast iron tsuba to place the sekigane into the nakago-ana (if sekigane was needed).  If tagane-ato punch marks were to be put on a cast iron tsuba, the tsuba would probably (because there are other factors to consider) crack, split, and break!

 

For me, those horizontal slots in the nakago-ana to hold the sekigane are a marker or tell that I use to help me determine if the tsuba could be possibly cast iron or is hand forged.

 

The tsuba shown is even missing a copper face of a figure on the left hand of the tsuba (omote side).

 

Is it possible that the tsuba craftsman of the time (possibly in the Edo period?) cast and hand worked these tsuba in an “assembly line” type fashion?

 

The tsuba was cast, then it was filed, and then the artist painted some motif on with gold paint, and then glued the copper (or other types of metal) faces on the figures?

 

If you look closely at the pictures, you can ascertain some unfiled areas of the tsuba (like around the chrysanthemums) and some areas that are slightly raised but were forgotten to have been painted (like on the sleeve and robe of the figure on the right of the tsuba).

 

You can also see other areas of the tsuba that are undulating, not flat, and appear as casting flaws?

 

Could this particular type of tsuba that is supposed to represent the Soten school have been cast and is not hand forged?

 

Is it as old as the description below states (pre-1800 – personally, I don’t think so)?  Was it only made for the tourist trade?  Are there other examples “out there” but that have sekigane in the nakago-ana to show that they have been mounted?

 

I know I have also seen other similar type (possibly Edo period?) cast iron tsuba on this forum and some are missing one or a few of the faces (as is this tsuba), and some are complete.

 

Although I can’t recall which thread they were shown on!

 

Was this tsuba made in the late Edo period (and I know that is a very difficult -if not impossible-thing to determine!)?  If it is newer than the Edo period, it seems like a lot of work for a craftsman to go through just to make a fake Edo period tsuba, which probably could have been made after the Edo period with a lot less detail and work (then the one shown below) just to sell it to the tourists!

 

And of course, I could be totally wrong about everthing I stated in this post (and I probably am - ha, ha, ha, etc!!) 

I just thought this particular tsuba is very interesting and presents several possible questions.

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

Iron Tsuba Soten, signed made by Mogarashi Sōten,

Primary Material - Iron 

Original/Reproduction - Antique Original

Region of Origin - Japan

Age-   pre-1800

Disclaimer-  I am not an expert, so look at the photographs carefully.