Tsuba casting molds ?

[Brian]

I'd have locked it ages ago since I think there is no more to add. But then I may be accused of preventing further info from coming to light?

[GRC]

Sorry @Brian, not trying to start an argument at all, but just wanted to point out how "loaded" your recent post was.

 

It is filled with ad hoc hypotheses: a hypothesis added to a theory in order to save it from being falsified.

These are merely statements of opinion, which means an opposing opinion could be generated just as easily. 

 

These are just tools of rhetorical persuasion (once again),

and sadly, one view or the other will most likely reinforce the views of those who have already taken their position on the subject. Otherwise, the more persuasively stated opinion, or the opinion that is stated most often, will likely win over anyone who is new to the topic.

Both opposing views are essentially useless, because they are just "banter".

 

So once again, the debate strays from the use of evidence.

...or worse, using the perceived absence of evidence to falsely justify a hypothesis. 

 

Here are some counter points... just to point out how easy it is to do:

8 hours ago, Brian said:

So are you saying this vast industry existed, and because they were not seen as great items, they were just ignored for hundreds of years and by tens of thousands of scholars?

 

I would argue that is just as plausible a statement as saying "there is no book on it, therefore they don't exist".

But neither can be confirmed, so why keep going with it?

 

Rhetorical question (a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer):

 

Why would anyone focus on writing a book on these lowly mass-produced objects, that would have most likely been made (if at all) for the consumption by commoners, not samurai? They're not hand-made, just hand finished, so they fall way down on the scale of craftsmanship and in a completely different industry. 

 

It would be almost as worthy as writing a book on McDonald's plastic happy meal toys... except that is tied to modern pop-culture, which people are obsessed with, so there probably is a book on those, ugh... 

Or in a Japanese context, why not write a book about who made wooden rulers in the Edo period? Pointless...

 

Fact:

We also know for a fact that there are next to no surviving records and very few archeological items for the entire iron casting industry.

 

Rhetorical question:

So where would the records be for someone to research and write a book about them?

 

Fact:

Almost every cast-iron tsuba out there with some "apparent age" is either wakisashi or tanto sized.

 

Hypothesis:

I think it would be easy to conclude (if they were indeed made in large numbers during the Edo period) that most of these were intended for the commoners who could not wear a long sword.

 

Rhetorical question:

If these were only made for Westerners and export post-Edo, then why not make them all the "more desirable" katana size? The makers & sellers would have made a lot more money. 

In my experience, only the ones that are being made now, with a high degree of accuracy to an original, are of katana size. These ones are deliberately being sold to deceive the buyer... buyer beware! 

 

Fact:

I would also like to point out, Brian (among several others), that you are conveniently ignoring all the published scholars (listed many times now) who have stated the existence of cast-iron tsuba during the Edo period as a matter of fact.  

You are merely "choosing" which "expert" to follow.

Both are irrelevant (for the most part), because these expert opinions are only as good as their source material.

So far, only Sesko has provided a reference to Japanese records about kettle-makers producing cast-iron tsuba in the mid-1700s, that could be considered even remotely close to "valid". But even that would need more supporting evidence to be considered "proof".   

 

Fact check for Brian:

"tens of thousands of scholars?"... that sounds like a massive exaggeration.

A few hundred maybe...?

 

Fact:

These writers were all trying to research and show "the best of the best", handmade objects, to celebrate the amazing craftsmanship of the Japanese tsubako.

 

Rhetorical question and observation:

Why include mass-produced objects that employ almost none of the skills and techniques of the tsubako, and were made by a separate industry?

...and again, with next to no available information, especially considering (if I recall correctly) from the Japanese review article I cited earlier in the thread, that the majority of the excavations of casting sites took place in recent decades.

So there was almost a complete absence of information cast-iron production and facilities, at the time that most research was being done about tsuba.   

 

Here's another massively flawed ad hoc hypothesis:

9 hours ago, Brian said:

Most of the references that have been found so far are easily explained by a handful of hobbyist artisans maybe playing with something. Most of it is explained by the writers simply not having enough knowledge of what is wrought iron, what cast means exactly etc.

What proof do you have that the writers were confused each and every time they wrote about the materials a tsuba was made of?

That assumption is just a convenient way of dismissing any statement that doesn't agree with your position.

It is true that the naming of different types of metal alloys went through some shifts, especially in the late 1800s and early 1900s, but you can't use those transitions in terminology to just brush away every single statement that you don't like.

Likewise people can't just dismiss Joly's assessments of what was a cast tsuba in the collections he published information about in the early 1900s.  None of us were there, nor saw what he saw, so we can neither dismiss it nor take it as absolute proof.

At face value, Joly's observations are just as valid as any other tsuba scholar, but again, are not an absolute proof. 

@Brian I don't recall if you partook in that endeavor, but several people have done that, so I'm calling it out. 

People are just choosing to follow the expert who agrees with them while trying to discredit the expert who doesn't.

 

SUMMARY:

Facts vs hypotheses...

Hypotheses only serve to direct the avenue of questioning.

Hypotheses cannot be used as factual statements to justify a belief. 

 

Unfortunately, we're currently at an impasse due to a lack of concrete evidence to support either position. 

 

I will leave you all with two facts that have been unearthed through this thread:

1- The iron casting industry had "industrialized" to a large extent starting in the early 1700s, and was no longer dependent on small scale, individual medieval-type tatara.

2- There was an increased demand for tsuba starting in the mid-1700s. That includes "mass-production" of tsuba (material composition not specified), and shi-iremono ("ready-made" tsuba... materials not specified).

 

And now I leave you with one last Rhetorical question:

Given both of those facts, why wouldn't the cast-iron workers "get in on the action" and profit by producing something that there was demand for?

ie. more tsuba of a decorative nature, that were not intended for battle of any kind.

I haven't seen a single logical explanation to justify why these craftsmen would just sit idly by on the sidelines when they could also be profiting by selling these objects.

And of course one could make the argument that cast-iron tsuba were too lowly an object for the Japanese "bushi" of the time... but in my opinion, that just doesn't hold any weight if you consider production for the commoner (if that actually happened). 

 

But that's just another hypothetical question, and not any kind of proof at all.

 

On that note, I am taking Steve's advice and moving on to other topics, but won't hesitate to call out people's BS on this topic whenever it comes up again (as I'm sure it will).

 

Hopefully some magical evidence will be unearthed some day that ends this debate one way or the other.

 

And although my interpretation of the evidence gathered so far has me leaning more to one side of the debate, I really don't care which way it goes. 

 

Everyone is free to have an opinion... just be mindful of trying not to state it as a fact.

 

Evidence is evidence, and that's all that matters.

 

As Steve rightly pointed out,

All we know for certain, is that no certain conclusion can be made at this time.

 

Thanks everyone, it's been interesting , and I have enjoyed "wasting my time" with all of you 

 

Sorry @Steve Waszak, had to poke a little fun at that.

And thanks for the kind words earlier... I will try my best to live up to them (although it seems like a daunting task).  

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I found a very interesting article about cast iron tsuba.  I don’t know if it had been placed on the forum before, but I thought it was worth mentioning (again?).

 

The article was written in Japan in 2016 (and is copyrighted).  It deals with several aspects of tsuba (including cast iron tsuba and shows pictures).  I have included the link below (although sometimes Google will translate “tsuba” as “bell”).

 

https://asahitoken.jp/contents/06_kokogaku/kokogaku-E.html

 

The article must have some truth to it otherwise why would someone in Japan bother to write it and place it on the internet?

 

Anyway, I think it is worth reading and gives some good insights into cast iron tsuba.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all (yes, I was searching around on the internet again!)

 

Now, as was referred (and described) in the article in my last post;

 

Perhaps some Namban type tsuba are an example of a cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period that may have been used on swords in Japan.  And I remember from reading it somewhere (although I can’t recall the reference- maybe it was Dr. Lissenden’s thesis?) that Namban type tsuba were not only made in Japan but several were exported from China (and maybe other countries) and imported into Japan.

 

The thesis by Dr. Lissenden on Namban tsuba has been brought up several times on this thread.  I refer the reader to page 1 of this thread (for some insights into his thesis) and then page 2 (which lists the PDF link to the thesis).  I also refer the reader to page 136 to 139 of that thesis itself for a discussion of cast iron Namban tsuba. ----

 

So up for your viewing pleasure today is a piece described as a cast iron Namban type tsuba that was made in the Edo period.

 

It is described at the below website- (and some pictures are also included below)-

 

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/cast-iron-compass-rose-guard

(the name of the creator and the link to the license can be found on the above website).

 

Here is a small preview of what you will find on the above link-

“Description

A cast-iron sword guard of unknown origin. It is a flat disc with a raised circular panel, with a star motif emerging from its edge. It has three openings, one for the sword tang and two others that emulate the hitsu-ana found on Japanese tsuba, openings for a pin and by-knife often carried alongside the main sword. The workmanship however tells us that this guard is not made in Japan.”

(to read entire the article you will have to click on the “read full article” red section.  Also, if you scroll all the way through the article, you will see several close-up pictures of the tsuba). 

 

I have included some of the pictures below.

 

This tsuba has been sold.  

 

Also, if there are any questions about the reputation of the dealer (which was established in 2005), I refer you to the top of the link where you can see and click on his “about” section.

 

Anyway, the adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

This tsuba has been sold.  So, someone thought that the description was accurate and purchased the tsuba!

Sorry Dan, that is such an assumption.

[Matsunoki]

Let me qualify…..just because something is marked as sold it doesn’t mean it was. People play many games on the internet. Dealers will sometimes make it look as if something is sold.

or 

the buyer didn’t believe one word of the description but bought it for another reason eg he liked it.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Colin!

 

Thanks for your posts.  Just to avoid any further confusion, I edited my original post to take out my assumption of "so someone thought the description was accurate and purchased the tsuba!"

 

Thank you!

With respect,

Dan

[Baba Yaga]

Isn't that interesting. I sent a photo of that exact same Tsuba to Jim Gibert a few decades ago as he was doing research on cast. At the time I picked up a few of them for dirt cheap, thought they were Meji. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So I was searching around on the internet again and found some interesting stuff on cast iron tsuba.  I found it very insightful and informative in that it has pictures of broken cast iron tsuba.  I believe the link is from Japan.  I have included the website and a few of some of the pictures below.  

 

cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

So more interesting stuff!  I found this at this weblink:

 

http://www.ksky.ne.j...des.html#cast%20iron

 

A piece of the article is quoted below-

 

“9) Cast iron tsuba
Kokaji found an iron tsuba at an antique dealer. Its design was that he was looking for so far. But it looked like cast iron by studying it in his hand.
It was a casting copy of a good Owari tsuba. Cast iron tsuba is far cheaper than steel tsuba, even if the design is so good. The difference of their prices is ten times or more in the market. Cast iron tsuba is a toy and never could be a weapon.
He said to the dealer that he was sorry for that tsuba because of it was cast iron. The dealer didn't agree with him, because the dealer was sure it was steel. Then they studied it carefully but never agreed. There was no seam mark on the cut out surface. The seam mark caused by casting work had been removed by filing carefully.
The dealer said, "I believe this tsuba is steel, so please break it. If it can not break easily, please buy it."
Kokaji didn't want to break it in two pieces, so he settled it on vice and punched a small part of it. A small amount of metal was broken off easily. It never bent. Finally they got the solution. It was a very cast iron tsuba. It was so brittle.”

 

What is interesting is the ingenuity of the Japanese craftsman in filing down the cast iron seam marks!  You may have to magnify the mage shown below (from the article) to clearly see the tiny piece of shiny exposed cast iron that the red arrow is pointing to.

 

I am not saying this tsuba was cast in the Edo period, since there is no way to prove that.

 

I just think this is an interesting weblink along with the other weblink in my previous post (both from the same Japanese dealer) that shows several cast iron tsuba.

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Brian]

If you ask them, they will tell you that their opinion is that cast tsuba are modern-ish reproductions to deceive.
They say that old tsuba are used to make the castings for these reproductions. There are more tit-bits around their website.
 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

In response to Brian’s post, it was stated “If you ask them, they will tell you that their opinion is that cast tsuba are modern-ish reproductions to deceive.

They say that old tsuba are used to make the castings for these reproductions. There are more tit-bits around their website.”

 

So, Brian, I took your suggestion (thank you!).  I did “ask them” by email and received a fairly rapid reply to my question.  My email and the reply from the dealer are shown below-

 

My email question-

 

“Hello!  (I sent a message but I don't think it went through.  So I am trying again.)

 

My question is do you think that cast iron tsuba could have been made during the Edo period of Japanese history?  It seems to me that this could be possible.

 

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

And the dealer’s (from Japan) reply.  Which includes the website of the cast iron tsuba article referred to in my earlier post of June 21^st , and that website shows several pictures of the cast iron tsuba that the below email reply is referring to-

 

“Yes, I agree with your opinion.

 

All the cast iron tsuba look from Edo period for my eye.

cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)

 

Sincerely yours.

Sumie Kashima, operator of Usagiya”

 

Of course, the dealer could be incorrect in their opinion.  But the fact that they state “look from Edo period for my eye” is extremely interesting!  Thank you again Brian for suggesting that I ask them!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, this particular tea kettle came to my attention during the Brian stage of “find some other kids to play with. Not my forum”. Those of you that keep up with the forum know what I am referring to.

 

Anyway, all that is in the past.

 

I have included pictures of the tea kettle with the tsuba on it (both sides of the kettle).  I have also included a description that was included with the kettle.

 

I think it finally sold for about $330.00 U.S. dollars.

 

I could not ascertain when the kettle was made.  Perhaps Edo period?  Perhaps not?

 

Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Spartancrest]

On 6/3/2023 at 1:04 AM, Dan tsuba said:

So up for your viewing pleasure today is a piece described as a cast iron Namban type tsuba that was made in the Edo period.

 

It is described at the below website- (and some pictures are also included below)-

 

https://www.mandarin...n-compass-rose-guard

(the name of the creator and the link to the license can be found on the above website).

 

Well whether or not Dr. Lissenden has an example in his thesis, there was another just like the "Compass Rose " recently https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1104163395  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/x1104163395

  It has yet to sell and seems expensive for an obvious cast piece, but if it has some provenance perhaps it might command the asking price?

The tea pot is also over on the everyday objects thread. - https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/43107-tsuba-in-everyday-objects-the-culture-of-tsuba/page/5/

 

[ROKUJURO]

It is a water kettle. You cannot make tea in an iron kettle.

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

You cannot make tea in an iron kettle.

You can actually - but you might not want to drink it. 

[Stephen]

But you can make hot water for tea.

Proven study of long living Japanese using iron kettles receive iron in their diet. 

 

Why I cook mostly in cast iron.

[ROKUJURO]

Stephen,

that makes sense. Traditional TETSUBIN will always release iron ions that will bond with the tannic acid of the tea. That changes the taste and the quality of the tea.

Modern waterkettles (TETSUBIN KYUSU) for the export market may have coatings inside to prevent this.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Great information about the "water kettles".  Very interesting stuff.

 

But does anybody have any insights, opinions, or thoughts on when the water kettle (with the tsuba on its sides) that I included in my previous post could have been made?  Edo period?  Post Edo period?

 

That is the question I am asking (was the kettle made in the Edo period or not). The fact that the Japanese culture uses the water kettles to add iron to their diet or that iron water kettles release iron ions into the water (and the tea) -although interesting - is not important to me (as it is to some!) and it is way off topic (my opinion!).

 

Thanks!

[Stephen]

I didn't start it. I finished it!

Your welcome. 

[Dan tsuba]

So, some information (from another member) is quoted from the below thread-

“Tsuba in everyday objects - the culture of Tsuba”

(posted on 9/11 on page 5)

 

  “On 9/11/2023 at 5:02 AM, Deez77 said:

kettle with a typical Kinai tsuba design incorporated.

 

Well we could definitely call it a cast tsuba - by Kettle makers!  [Now what thread was that on?]

I do like the fact they did both the omote and ura views of the tsuba - well we know they had the molds!”

[Spartancrest]

I found this very interesting -https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/176003103396 Do we trust the information on this turn of the 20th century "Magic Lantern" glass slide?

"Muromachi - Ashikaga Period"  tsuba examples? Well if the dates are correct then they were making cast iron tsuba between 100 to 210 years before the Edo period!

The illustration shows at a minimum two cast guards of a very common type and likely another two - that is a third of the examples.

As a time line for the glass plate we have "Dry plate glass negatives were in common use between the 1880s and the late 1920s". 

 https://guides.libra.../glassplatenegatives

     

      

The butterfly one has a "splash" of gold paint to make it look 'pretty' [pity they dripped some on the rim!] Those with keen eyes will see the seppa-dai of the butterflies is slightly different to that in the glass plate - however they made at least three types and I have other examples with matching seppa-dai [this image was just clearer]

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

it has never been denied that Japanese craftsmen, especially the kettle-makers, could make single cast iron TSUBA in EDO JIDAI. But there is no proof that cast iron TSUBA were made in numbers for actual use on swords of SAMRAI or - later - merchants.

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

But there is no proof that cast iron TSUBA were made in numbers for actual use on swords of SAMURAI

 There is certainly "proof" that many cast tsuba were not made singly. I have a two hundred page book of nothing but an endless production line of cast tsuba in innumerable patterns.

 

 

 

 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I have come across a few swords , wakizashi usually , with cast tsuba on them . Poor or gullible samurai must have been using them.

[Spartancrest]

1 hour ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

I have come across a few swords , wakizashi usually , with cast tsuba on them . Poor or gullible samurai must have been using them.

I sometimes think we lose sight of the fact that while Samurai wore two swords, it did not mean they ever actually used them, particularly into the late Edo. Coupled with the fact many Samurai were on the breadline so to speak depending on where and for whom they served. We get bogged down with what the "upper class" would wear but reality doesn't work that way. JMO

 

I tracked down the image in the 'Magic Lantern' slide https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/176003103396

 

 

It comes from the collection of Pierre Barboutau [1904]  https://library.si.e...tion-p-barboutau-v-1  and the image appears on page 77 with the descriptions for the "Butterfly" guard and the "Shachi" dragons being :

 

XVi Siecles
985.  Garde décorée de quatre papillons unis par des rinceaux. Fer découpé de Nan-ban.     

Eng. 16th Century  985. Guard decorated with four butterflies united by foliage. Cut iron from Nan-ban.

 

XViii Siecles

IO39 Deux poissons-dragons affrontés. Ateliers de Hi-koné.     

Eng. 18th Century  IO39. Two dragon fish confronting each other. Hi-koné workshops.

 

So both dates well within the Edo period according to Pierre Barboutau [1862-1916]

[ROKUJURO]

Thanks Dale,

but where is a remark on these TSUBA being cast in EDO JIDAI? Monsieur Barboutau might have been a collector, but was he an expert so we can trust his era estimation?

The stories of poor SAMURAI are heartbreaking but just assessments.

[Spartancrest]

18 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Monsieur Barboutau might have been a collector, but was he an expert

No idea of his status or credentials, I can only report what is written. Who knows? .. In another hundred years all our "modern" experts might all be disregarded as easily as those who were closer to the actual events have become? [That's why I am no "expert". I can be disregarded in my own lifetime ]

[1kinko]

Swords, tosogu, and kosherae are frequently separated and united with different partners. A cast tsuba on an Edo sword means nothing about the pairing in the Edo period, imho.

[Dan tsuba]

I am certain that Dr. Lissenden’s paper has been brought up before in this thread!

 

But I just wanted to state (repeat?) some information that the Dr. stated in 2002 from-

 

“THE NAMBAN GROUP OF Japanese SWORD GUARDS: A REAPPRAISAL” by Dr John Philip Lissenden -A thesis submitted in January 2002 for the degree of Master of Arts of the University of Durham, as a result of research carried out in the Department of East Asian Studies of the University."

 

“The revelation that casting was extensively used for the production of Namban tsuba came as a surprise to the author — this in spite of Dr Oliver Impey's assertion to him that such was the case. Doubtless, many students will discount this finding as being unique to this specific group, and will justify it by pointing out the low status generally given to these guards. Should it not rather be considered to be indicative of the need for a search for similar signs of the casting process in other groups of tsuba?” (page 151).

 

Also-

 

“It is seen from this exercise that every one of the tsuba of this group that was examined demonstrated clear evidence of casting. Clearly, it cannot be concluded from this study that all Namban tsuba are produced as a result of a casting process, but it does demonstrate that, in any collection of Namban tsuba, a very large proportion of them will be moulded. This finding may lead students to the conclusion that such results are not surprising, merely reflecting the generally accepted concept of this group as being mass-produced and of poor quality. However, the subsequent examination by the author of 137 his own collection, comprising a wide range of qualities within assorted groups of tsuba, also indicated a surprisingly high proportion of moulded tsuba therein. It is therefore suggested that the high incidence of moulded tsuba in the Namban group should, perhaps, rather be considered to be an indication for the similar examination of other groups of tsuba as a comparative study.

 

Such a study would be strictly non-invasive, but one of its limitations would be the need for it to be carried out on museum artefacts of a recognised high quality in order to obviate the accusation that any pieces found to be cast were, a priori, of an inferior quality.” (pages 137 and 138).

 

With respect,

Dan