Tsuba casting molds ?

[ROKUJURO]

The KSKY text is nonsense; it is a 'normal' hand-made TSUBA I believe.

[DoTanuki yokai]

But why would soft steel or iron break like this ? 
I would think it would take some bent first but the piece on the picture looks like a good fake if it is one ? 
I know that they have their „own“ views at Usagiya sometimes.

[ROKUJURO]

This is a TOKEI TSUBA. They are much easier to forge and file than to make a mold and cast an iron copy that would then have to be worked over to make it look better. Casting iron is very different from casting soft metals, and in addition to that, there is no sense in producing TSUBA that weren't useful for combat.

In the picture we can see that a tiny bit was broken off. There is not enough material length to bend, so iron or steel will simply break under these conditions. 

USAGIYA are certainly competent in their own field, but this is metallurgy. 

[ROKUJURO]

Ah, he is still there, peeping behind the curtain! 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Well, I am back on this thread.  Why?  Because I have come across too much new good information on cast iron tsuba.  If I don’t post it now, I will forget about it!  Heck, I even forget where I sometimes leave my walking cane (that’s what happens when you’re old!).

 

So, included are pictures (picture 1 and 2) that are of newly made cast iron tsuba cast by the lost wax method. 

 

Notice the amazing amount of detail that can be achieved with that method!

 

As stated by the dealer, which can be found at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1149602781

 

“I am selling an iron Japanese sword tsuba.

This product is from a workshop specializing in Japanese swords for Iaido in Seki City, Gifu Prefecture.

It will be a contemporary work.

The material is iron, and it is made using the lost wax method.

They are produced by casting using wax molds (commonly known as precision casting).”

 

Also, Dr. Lissenden in his master’s thesis on Namban tsuba describes the lost form (wax) method (found on p. 130) that may have been used in making Namban type tsuba.  His thesis can be found at this link-

 

https://etheses.dur....4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

So, moving on,

Pictures number 3.4.5, 6 and 7 show an NBTHK papered tsuba that could very possibly have been made from cast iron.

 

That tsuba was for sale at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1160847457

 

Notice the unfiled casting flanges in some of the openings of the tsuba. 

Also notice small casting flaws that can be seen, if you look carefully.

And notice that the nakago-ana is bottle shaped.

A feature that I have found on many cast iron tsuba.

 

Also shown in pictures 8, 9 and 10 is another similar motif tsuba as the ones shown before.

It can be found at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1148317429

 

It is an NBTHK papered tsuba, which I think is cast iron.

In these pictures I have circled (also in red) several (what I determine to be) casting flaws.

 

Anyway, just my opinions!

 

Onward!

 

 

[Robert S]

Dan:

 

One important thing to understand is that lost wax mold making materials and methods have changed significantly in the last century or so, making iron casting (versus other metals) using lost wax much more likely currently that it would have been in the 19th century, or earlier.  I do believe that ultimately testing will show that sand casting was being used to produce some edo period tsuba - probably for the lower end of the market.  We know it was being used to produce other iron objects, so I'd be extremely surprised if it wasn't being done for tsuba. Oh for a time machine to go back to a "tsuba store" / sword seller in 1780!

 

But at the end of the day, I don't find the question as significant as many here.  If the casting and post casting clean-up and finishing has been so well done that you can't tell for sure whether it was cast, that's serious craft in its own right, trust me!  I just enjoy the objects on their merits... but I'm not a collector in the serious sense of the word - I'm just a dilettante who knows what he likes, as I proved with the recent piece I posted here... :-)

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Robert!

 

I understand what you stated in your previous post.

 

However, the question of whether or not an iron tsuba is cast or hand forged is an important aspect of the piece to many collectors (at least I think so!).

 

That is because it all comes down to the dollar bill in today’s tsuba market (my opinion).

 

A buyer may want to purchase a rather expensive tsuba that he believes is hand forged.

 

But what happens if he ever finds out that the expensive tsuba he purchased is actually cast iron (one day when a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test is developed to discern the difference between hand forged and cast iron – kind of a do it yourself at your home test!)

 

That is why I keep posting on this thread.  To try and show members that some Edo period tsuba may have been cast, and not hand forged.

 

Maybe looking at a tsuba for specific signs of possible casting (as I and others have shown pictures of possible cast iron Edo period tsuba on this thread) will help tsuba collectors question whether the piece is hand forged or possibly cast.

 

Onward!

 

[Spartancrest]

It is not my imagination is it, that the under board of the "drying rack" is thicker/wider for the last segments on all the abalone drying racks?

Cast or hand forged this is poor workmanship IMHO.

[Dan tsuba]

Here is something neat from the internet. 

 

It explains and shows pictures of a lot of cast-iron sand-casting defects!

 

Have you seen some of these defects on tsuba that you have? 

 

I know that I have seen some of those cast iron defects on one or two (or three!) of my (about) 150  tsuba!

 

Below is the weblink-

 

https://vietnamcasti...and-casting-defects/

 

Check out the pictures under Pinholes, Blowholes (see Open holes), Cut and washes, Metal penetration, and Fusion.

 

Especially those Metal penetration and Fusion pictures (pictures attached below).  I think something like that Metal penetration or Fusion (and an Open hole) appears on a papered NBTHK tsuba that I showed in one of my previous posts here (I have included those pictures again below with the NBTHK papers).

 

Interesting pictures and information on that weblink!

 

Onward!

 

[Dan tsuba]

Dr. Lissenden’s master’s thesis on Namban tsuba (which has been brought up several times on this thread) is like a university course in itself!

 

Here is the title of that work-

 

“THE NAMBAN GROUP OF Japanese SWORD GUARDS:

A REAPPRAISAL by Dr John Philip Lissenden.

Submitted, in January 2002, for the Master of Arts degree of the University of Durham.”

 

I think it is a must read for collectors!

 

Not only does it examine, explore and explain Namban type tsuba, but it also delves into tsuba casting methods.

 

For those that don’t want to read the entire thesis (199 pages) I recommend only reading pages 131 through 139 since those pages deal with tsuba casting.

 

His thesis can be found at this link-

 

https://etheses.dur....4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

A few quotes from those pages are shown below-

 

The following is from p. 133-

“Can this supposed action by one of the Yagyu craftsmen be viewed rather as a method

of eliminating from a selection of tsuba those that had been moulded instead of forged

and, perhaps, taken as confirmation that the casting of tsuba was acknowledged to exist?”

 

(When ‘lost form’ is used it refers to the ‘lost wax’ method of casting)

From p.134-

“9.3. TH E CASTING OF NAMBAN TSUBA

Theoretically, Namban tsuba are ideally suited to manufacture by the 'lost form'

method of casting. They were largely mass-produced shiiremono, and the

convoluted undercutting and scrollwork that characterise this group are easily

reproducible by such casting techniques. Indeed, to produce such work by a hand-carving

process could be considered technically difficult and economically impractical.”

 

Also, on that same page (p,134)-

“• The surface of a cast guard will give the impression of granularity and porosity,

and 'sand bubbles' may be present. Conversely, the heating and hammering

processes involved during the working of the metal leave a surface that is relatively

smooth and featureless on magnification. Such granularity is most easily seen on

plain, undecorated surfaces, but facets of the chisel-work, where cast, will

demonstrate a similar porous surface.”

 

And from page 137-

“The examination — with a light and with powerful magnification — of a corpus of

Namban tsuba leads one to the surprising conclusion that a very high proportion

of them are the result of a casting process.

In order to confirm this conclusion, a group of 29 arbitrarily selected Namban

tuba was examined and each tsuba was graded according to the presence of four

indicators of casting, as follows:

1. The presence of surface granularity and porosity, with or without 'sand bubbles'.

2. The presence of investment material — a residue of a red, granular nature was

discounted.

3. The presence of 'feathering' in the openwork.

4. A lack of crispness in the incised areas.”

 

(for a possible comparison picture of item #1 explained above I refer the reader to this forum thread-

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50495-sand-cast/

and my post of Friday -11/15/24-at 7:17AM)

 

So, again, some interesting stuff on cast iron tsuba!

 

This has been my thing (and a few others) for about 2 years and 10 months.

 

I am not going to let it go until a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test to discern between cast iron and hand forged iron is discovered!

 

Only in that way will the nonbelivers ever acknowledge that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period!

 

Otherwise, it is just a best guess by those that still say that cast iron tsuba were not made in the Edo period (even though it has been shown that the NBTHK has papered cast iron tsuba - please refer to my previous post above).

 

Onward!

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, I was just thinking again (I know many of you may be saying “oh no, he wasn’t thinking again!”  Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!).

 

In my post to this thread on page 12 dated June 27, 2023, I inquired from an antique dealer in Japan about their opinion on cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period.

 

And the dealer’s reply was-

 

“Yes, I agree with your opinion.

All the cast iron tsuba look from Edo period for my eye.

cast iron”

 

So, I decided to ask another seller in Japan, who is also an antique dealer, a question about cast iron tsuba.  My question is stated below-

 

“I have a question I would like to ask you.

What is your opinion that cast iron kettle makers in Japan also made cast iron tsuba in the Edo period?

I think I have a couple of Edo period tsuba that are cast from cast iron.”

 

Now, there is really no reason to state who this antique dealer is.  I will say that they have been on eBay and doing business since 2003 and they have sold about 73 thousand items with a 99.4% positive feedback rating.

 

This is the antique dealer over the years that I purchased my daisho from, 3 other antique blades, some tsuba, a jingasa, and two yari.

 

So, my opinion is that they are a reputable dealer.

 

There reply was-

 

“About Tsuba.

I think they were made by fitting them into shapes when they needed to be produced in large quantities

But I don’t know about iron kettle maker made cast iron Tsuba.

Very difficult judge…”

 

Anyway, just some interesting stuff.

 

It seems that this Japanese antique dealer seems to think that cast iron (“fitting them into shapes”) tsuba were made when they were needed in large quantities (remembering that I asked specifically about the Edo period).

 

Although whether they were made by kettle makers or other craftsmen is “very difficult judge”.

 

Well, at least I am still interested in this cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period subject and am trying different ways to find out about it!

 

Onward!

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi all!

 

Yes, I am still at it (well at least it keeps this old guy busy and off the streets!).

 

So, let me talk about hand forged tsuba (one is papered) and compare them to a papered tsuba that I believe is cast iron.

 

The first tsuba shown is a hand forged tsuba that was completed in 2024.  It is beautiful and shows how the seppa-dai looks on a newly hand forged piece.  More information about this gorgeous tsuba can be found on this forum here-(and pictures are shown below)-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50233-4th-attempt-at-tsuba-making/#comment-522926

 

Then I found a tsuba that was papered.  Now compare that much older hand forged papered tsuba to the new tsuba that I explained above, and you can again see how the seppa-dai on both hand forged tsuba appear similar.

 

Again, pictures are shown below.

 

Finally, I show pictures of a papered tsuba that I believe is cast iron.  The seppa-dai area on that (what I believe to be cast iron) cast iron tsuba appears nothing like the seppa-dai area on the hand forged tsuba.

 

I know that this may be a point of contention for many because probably it will be stated by some that the tsuba craftsman made hand forged tsuba appear differently because of how they treated the surface of the metal with chemicals.

 

That may be so.  But I am of the opinion that those small pitted areas on the seppa-dai (and that actually are all over that tsuba) of the tsuba that I think is cast iron were made by sand casting the tsuba.

 

Hey, just my opinion!

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

I've just started learning but I don't think the last tsuba is cast. Also the texture feels normal to my eyes, happens with patination process and with age! So it's probably an older Tsuba. Second one seems late edo, also lacquered on smooth iron but I may be wrong. 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Derek!

 

Thanks for your opinions.  Always appreciated!

 

But, included below are pictures of 2 of my tsuba that I believe are very old.

The seppa-dai on the first old tsuba does not have pitting.

The seppa-dia on the second old tsuba has rust pitting, which looks entirlely different then sand cast pitting on the seppai-dia of the tsuba shown above, which it is my opinion is cast iron (shown in one of my above posts and also shown below).

 

Onward!

 

 

 

[Dereks]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hi Derek!

 

Thanks for your opinions.  Always appreciated!

 

But, included below are pictures of 2 of my tsuba that I believe are very old.

The seppa-dai on the first old tsuba does not have pitting.

The seppa-dia on the second old tsuba has rust pitting, which looks entirlely different then sand cast pitting on the seppai-dia of the tsuba shown above (in one of my above posts).

 

Onward!

 

 

 

The papered tsuba in your previous post is in good condition, so it must have been well taken care of and protected. In your last post, first tsuba is in better condition than the second one. Second one is corroded and patina is eaten out.. that's the reason seppa dai looks different. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again Derek!

 

I don’t know.

 

So, what is your opinion?

 

Could cast iron tsuba have been made in the Edo period?

 

I hope you have read the 16 pages of this thread.  Many members contributed to it.

 

Although to read the whole theard may take you a couple of weeks to get through it all (it is long and involved)!

 

Throughout this thread I, and a few others, have tried to back up our opinions with research (and stated our references) or at least have shown pictures of what our opinions are based on.

 

Maybe I am just wasting my time after about 3 years on this thread!

 

I am also a licensed radio amateur.

 

Maybe I should just concentrate on my radio stuff!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

Yes, I read the whole thread, and my answer is: I don’t know. I don’t have access to old books in Japanese libraries, and I don’t know Japanese. I believe that’s where the answer lies—not here.

 

However, from what I’ve read, if I were to make a guess, the Edo period was a time of peace, and they didn’t need to make tsuba in bulk as they did in earlier periods. During the Edo period, tsuba became more like jewelry—something to make one stand out. Additionally, tsuba makers had much more time to practice their craft and come up with new ideas. So, I believe tsuba makers invested their time in quality rather than rushing their work. That was probably the best way to attract new customers. If they had made cast iron tsuba, I’m sure clients would have noticed the difference, and none of them would have wanted to lose customers.

 

So, maybe they did, or maybe they didn’t. And quite honestly, it doesn’t matter much.

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Derek!

 

Thanks for your opinions, again much appreciated!

 

In part of your post, you stated-

 

“However, from what I’ve read, if I were to make a guess, the Edo period was a time of peace, and they didn’t need to make tsuba in bulk as they did in earlier periods. During the Edo period, tsuba became more like jewelry—something to make one stand out. Additionally, tsuba makers had much more time to practice their craft and come up with new ideas. So, I believe tsuba makers invested their time in quality rather than rushing their work. That was probably the best way to attract new customers. If they had made cast iron tsuba, I’m sure clients would have noticed the difference, and none of them would have wanted to lose customers.

 

So, maybe they did, or maybe they didn’t. And quite honestly, it doesn’t matter much”

 

Well, I don’t know.

 

I figure not everyone could afford a tsuba that was a work of art, so maybe some craftsmen made cast iron tsuba to appeal to the less wealthy?

 

Also, I think this subject of if cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period does matter (and is of interest) to many people as witnessed by the number of views on this thread.

 

I have found out over the years that there are many people that look at and read a thread or posts without participating in that thread.  They are interested in the subject, but (for whatever reason) just don’t wish to participate or get involved. 

 

Anyway, just my opinion.

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

I figure not everyone could afford a tsuba that was a work of art, so maybe some craftsmen made cast iron tsuba to appeal to the less wealthy?

 

I have found out over the years that there are many people that look at and read a thread or posts without participating in that thread.  They are interested in the subject, but (for whatever reason) just don’t wish to participate or get involved. 

 

Anyway, just my opinion.

 

Onward!

 

 

Brainstorming about hundreds of years back is not the right way to prove this. Then I could say "If they couldn't afford a new one, they probably bought second hand..and they added some copper stuff(sorry i don't know it's name) to seppa dai and made it fit to their swords" 

 

Maybe some people did try to make cast iron tsuba during the Edo period but found them to be very fragile, so they stopped. And let’s say you came across some of those early experimental pieces—there you have it: an Edo-period cast iron tsuba. So what? Is it really going to change anything?

 

Right now, people with so much more experience than me says they didn't see any cast iron tsuba from the EDO period. If I'm going to contradict them, I need something solid. To do that, I need years of experience. So, as of this moment, who am i to do that. 

 

Even if I look at hundreds of tsuba on Google and post some pictures here that appear to be cast iron, they’ll ask me to prove it—and I won’t be able to. And I’m not going to contradict or fight them just because they have a different opinion. 

 

If I need to prove this, I’ll need time and access to the required information. And I won’t be finding that information in English books or websites. As I said, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter much(for me). I'd rather spending my time learning what is already available and better.

 

Thanks

[Dan tsuba]

The Truth Is Out There-

 

But those old Japanese texts that may contain insights into the question of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period probably won’t be translated from Japanese to English, figured out and collated in my lifetime!

 

Nothing can be proven until an inexpensive non-invasive metallurgical test to discern between cast iron and hand forged iron comes along!  Which also probably won't happen in my lifetime!

 

Otherwise, it will always be said that it is just everybody’s best guess and opinions about whether cast iron tsuba were not made or were made in the Edo period.

 

And let us not forget that if a tsuba collector spends a lot of money for a Edo period piece that they think is hand forged (or maybe was even described as hand forged) and then perhaps finds out later that it is actually cast iron;  I think that would be a negative experience for the collector!

 

But this has all been stated before, somewhere on this thread!

 

Onward!

[Dan tsuba]

I just can't help posting papered tsuba that appear that they were cast!

Below is a tsuba that is papered.

What do you think?

Cast iron or not?

I have circled the questionable areas in red that appear as casting flaws (maybe you can find other casting flaws?).

Would a hand forged and carved tusba have those flaws?

Onward!

 

[KungFooey]

3 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Would a hand forged and carved tusba have those flaws?

 

Hi Dan,

 

You just don't seem to get it that a real big part of the attraction of a hand forged piece of ironwork IS the flaws - the visual evidence of the artist's sweat and labor. Creativity and artistry born out of iron, fire and anvil.

Why do you think nobody collects wrought iron railings? 

 

I do respect your interest in this field but it honestly feels like you're trying to ram it down everyone else's throats.

 

Just sayin'

Dee

[Brian]

Dan,
Do me a favour please. Take a confirmed (modern copy is fine) cast tsuba, take a punch, and punch around the nakago ana heavily to deform the metal like many of these you post.
Tell us if the metal deforms nicely and changes shape, or if it crumbles and bits fall off.

[ROKUJURO]

Brian,

any piece of scrap cast iron would do the job for this test, you wouldn't even need a TSUBA!

But this would then mean real research and learning.....painful for some. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi all!

So, Dee in her post stated-

 

“I do respect your interest in this field but it honestly feels like you're trying to ram it down everyone else's throats.”

 

Just trying to point out that I think there were other methods and alternate ways of making tsuba in the Edo period besides hand forging.

 

Maybe this thread may keep a collector from spending a small fortune on something that turns out later to be cast iron.

 

It has always come down to non-invasive metallurgical testing (which is too expensive to do nowadays).  So, developing a good eye may be the only way to determine cast from hand forged.

 

Also, it has been stated (somewhere in the beginning or middle of this thread) how cast iron can be annealed to make it less brittle.  Then it could be re-heated, so maybe tagane-ato punch marks could be done on cast iron?

 

The lasl couple of posts have asked me to do a punch mark or hammer test on cast iron.  Of course doing that the results would be obvious, the piece would crack and break.

 

How about those that asked me to conduct that test do a test of their own?

 

Take a piece of cast iron.  Anneal it.  Then re-heat it and try to put tagane-ato punch marks in it.  

 

Remembering that some of these tsuba craftsmen were specialists (maybe going back 2 to 6 generations (?) or more in some families) in heating and working metals.  I would figure that they knew a lot more than anybody else does that makes a tsuba today.

 

Onward!

 

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

A real test would be nice. So far this is all just been pictures, ideas, and theories. 

 

If you find a tsuba you speculate is cast, how do you then determine it was made in the edo period? More speculation? 
 

It’s fine to speculate, but 16 pages of it without anything deeper to back it up… for what? 
 

Is this all just for your Amazon book? 

 

 

[KungFooey]

1 hour ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

A real test would be nice. So far this is all just been pictures, ideas, and theories. 

 

If you find a tsuba you speculate is cast, how do you then determine it was made in the edo period? More speculation? 
 

It’s fine to speculate, but 16 pages of it without anything deeper to back it up… for what? 
 

Is this all just for your Amazon book? 

 

Aha - maybe time to come clean.

 

Dan, you asked how I knew which car you drove. Nothing 'cloak n' dagger', I promise - I just looked up your book on Amazon (shown above by Sam) and spotted the following.

 

You've self-published two books on two pretty obscure subjects - nothing wrong with that. But then you've given them both identically worded 5 star reviews under the name 'Paul'. (The only reviews either book has gotten.)
'Paul' also gave reviews to accessories for a Jeep Gladiator Overland - the car you said you own.

 

Bingo.

 

Sorry to do a "Murder She Wrote" style Jessica Fletcher reveal but this whole thread has become an obsession leading nowhere fast.

 

I'm honestly not trying to rub your nose in it but, if you have to give fake reviews to your own book under a fake name, you can't really be very confident about your own theory or argument, can you?

 

Dee

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Dee, for letting me know that some people are overly obsessed with finding out information about someone else!

 

Heck, I should feel honored that you were so interested to find out information about me!

 

Thanks!

 

Also, several people review their own stuff on Amazon to generate interest.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that, so why must you belittle me for doing it?  I mean it seems to me that you are really trying hard to put me down, by posting all the stuff that you did about Amazon!

 

And thanks for your post referring to both my books.  Maybe now someone will actually purchase one copy of either of them on Amazon!  Although forum members can get more information just reading this thread.  Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

Maybe next time, it would just be better to keep the background information you find out on people to yourself.

 

How many others on this forum have you found out information about?

 

And yes, this thread is probably an obsession with me (more like a passionate interest in a subject).  But who are you to say that it is leading nowhere fast!

 

Also, I am very confident about my own theory and argument.

 

Hey, when you have authored a thread that has generated a whole lot of interest (with over 30.8 thousand views) then maybe you will be speaking from experience!

 

Merry Christmas!

[GeorgeLuucas]

I’d consider buying it, but I have big concerns. Is it all just your comments, minus the dissenting opinions and viewpoints discussed here? If any of those opinions are included, are those people credited? 
 

Will you be donating any of the book proceeds to the forum where you collaborated the information published?

 

Never seen anything like this before on the forum, so forgive me if I find it suspicious. 
-Sam 

[Dan tsuba]

Off topic here!

Hey Sam,

As stated in the first couple of pages of my book (and on the back cover which you were so kind to post), only my posts on this thread are included (and not even all of them), no one else's posts.

As you stated "Is it all just your comments, minus the dissenting opinions and viewpoints discussed here?" 

Yes, that is how it was done. 

No information was collaborated from others posts on this thread.

Now, can we move on!

Merry Christmas!