Tsuba casting molds ?

[ROKUJURO]

The KSKY text is nonsense; it is a 'normal' hand-made TSUBA I believe.

[DoTanuki yokai]

But why would soft steel or iron break like this ? 
I would think it would take some bent first but the piece on the picture looks like a good fake if it is one ? 
I know that they have their „own“ views at Usagiya sometimes.

[ROKUJURO]

This is a TOKEI TSUBA. They are much easier to forge and file than to make a mold and cast an iron copy that would then have to be worked over to make it look better. Casting iron is very different from casting soft metals, and in addition to that, there is no sense in producing TSUBA that weren't useful for combat.

In the picture we can see that a tiny bit was broken off. There is not enough material length to bend, so iron or steel will simply break under these conditions. 

USAGIYA are certainly competent in their own field, but this is metallurgy. 

[ROKUJURO]

Ah, he is still there, peeping behind the curtain! 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Well, I am back on this thread.  Why?  Because I have come across too much new good information on cast iron tsuba.  If I don’t post it now, I will forget about it!  Heck, I even forget where I sometimes leave my walking cane (that’s what happens when you’re old!).

 

So, included are pictures (picture 1 and 2) that are of newly made cast iron tsuba cast by the lost wax method. 

 

Notice the amazing amount of detail that can be achieved with that method!

 

As stated by the dealer, which can be found at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1149602781

 

“I am selling an iron Japanese sword tsuba.

This product is from a workshop specializing in Japanese swords for Iaido in Seki City, Gifu Prefecture.

It will be a contemporary work.

The material is iron, and it is made using the lost wax method.

They are produced by casting using wax molds (commonly known as precision casting).”

 

Also, Dr. Lissenden in his master’s thesis on Namban tsuba describes the lost form (wax) method (found on p. 130) that may have been used in making Namban type tsuba.  His thesis can be found at this link-

 

https://etheses.dur....4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

So, moving on,

Pictures number 3.4.5, 6 and 7 show an NBTHK papered tsuba that could very possibly have been made from cast iron.

 

That tsuba was for sale at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1160847457

 

Notice the unfiled casting flanges in some of the openings of the tsuba. 

Also notice small casting flaws that can be seen, if you look carefully.

And notice that the nakago-ana is bottle shaped.

A feature that I have found on many cast iron tsuba.

 

Also shown in pictures 8, 9 and 10 is another similar motif tsuba as the ones shown before.

It can be found at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1148317429

 

It is an NBTHK papered tsuba, which I think is cast iron.

In these pictures I have circled (also in red) several (what I determine to be) casting flaws.

 

Anyway, just my opinions!

 

Onward!

 

 

[Robert S]

Dan:

 

One important thing to understand is that lost wax mold making materials and methods have changed significantly in the last century or so, making iron casting (versus other metals) using lost wax much more likely currently that it would have been in the 19th century, or earlier.  I do believe that ultimately testing will show that sand casting was being used to produce some edo period tsuba - probably for the lower end of the market.  We know it was being used to produce other iron objects, so I'd be extremely surprised if it wasn't being done for tsuba. Oh for a time machine to go back to a "tsuba store" / sword seller in 1780!

 

But at the end of the day, I don't find the question as significant as many here.  If the casting and post casting clean-up and finishing has been so well done that you can't tell for sure whether it was cast, that's serious craft in its own right, trust me!  I just enjoy the objects on their merits... but I'm not a collector in the serious sense of the word - I'm just a dilettante who knows what he likes, as I proved with the recent piece I posted here... :-)

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Robert!

 

I understand what you stated in your previous post.

 

However, the question of whether or not an iron tsuba is cast or hand forged is an important aspect of the piece to many collectors (at least I think so!).

 

That is because it all comes down to the dollar bill in today’s tsuba market (my opinion).

 

A buyer may want to purchase a rather expensive tsuba that he believes is hand forged.

 

But what happens if he ever finds out that the expensive tsuba he purchased is actually cast iron (one day when a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test is developed to discern the difference between hand forged and cast iron – kind of a do it yourself at your home test!)

 

That is why I keep posting on this thread.  To try and show members that some Edo period tsuba may have been cast, and not hand forged.

 

Maybe looking at a tsuba for specific signs of possible casting (as I and others have shown pictures of possible cast iron Edo period tsuba on this thread) will help tsuba collectors question whether the piece is hand forged or possibly cast.

 

Onward!

 

[Spartancrest]

It is not my imagination is it, that the under board of the "drying rack" is thicker/wider for the last segments on all the abalone drying racks?

Cast or hand forged this is poor workmanship IMHO.

[Dan tsuba]

Here is something neat from the internet. 

 

It explains and shows pictures of a lot of cast-iron sand-casting defects!

 

Have you seen some of these defects on tsuba that you have? 

 

I know that I have seen some of those cast iron defects on one or two (or three!) of my (about) 150  tsuba!

 

Below is the weblink-

 

https://vietnamcasti...and-casting-defects/

 

Check out the pictures under Pinholes, Blowholes (see Open holes), Cut and washes, Metal penetration, and Fusion.

 

Especially those Metal penetration and Fusion pictures (pictures attached below).  I think something like that Metal penetration or Fusion (and an Open hole) appears on a papered NBTHK tsuba that I showed in one of my previous posts here (I have included those pictures again below with the NBTHK papers).

 

Interesting pictures and information on that weblink!

 

Onward!

 

[Dan tsuba]

Dr. Lissenden’s master’s thesis on Namban tsuba (which has been brought up several times on this thread) is like a university course in itself!

 

Here is the title of that work-

 

“THE NAMBAN GROUP OF Japanese SWORD GUARDS:

A REAPPRAISAL by Dr John Philip Lissenden.

Submitted, in January 2002, for the Master of Arts degree of the University of Durham.”

 

I think it is a must read for collectors!

 

Not only does it examine, explore and explain Namban type tsuba, but it also delves into tsuba casting methods.

 

For those that don’t want to read the entire thesis (199 pages) I recommend only reading pages 131 through 139 since those pages deal with tsuba casting.

 

His thesis can be found at this link-

 

https://etheses.dur....4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

A few quotes from those pages are shown below-

 

The following is from p. 133-

“Can this supposed action by one of the Yagyu craftsmen be viewed rather as a method

of eliminating from a selection of tsuba those that had been moulded instead of forged

and, perhaps, taken as confirmation that the casting of tsuba was acknowledged to exist?”

 

(When ‘lost form’ is used it refers to the ‘lost wax’ method of casting)

From p.134-

“9.3. TH E CASTING OF NAMBAN TSUBA

Theoretically, Namban tsuba are ideally suited to manufacture by the 'lost form'

method of casting. They were largely mass-produced shiiremono, and the

convoluted undercutting and scrollwork that characterise this group are easily

reproducible by such casting techniques. Indeed, to produce such work by a hand-carving

process could be considered technically difficult and economically impractical.”

 

Also, on that same page (p,134)-

“• The surface of a cast guard will give the impression of granularity and porosity,

and 'sand bubbles' may be present. Conversely, the heating and hammering

processes involved during the working of the metal leave a surface that is relatively

smooth and featureless on magnification. Such granularity is most easily seen on

plain, undecorated surfaces, but facets of the chisel-work, where cast, will

demonstrate a similar porous surface.”

 

And from page 137-

“The examination — with a light and with powerful magnification — of a corpus of

Namban tsuba leads one to the surprising conclusion that a very high proportion

of them are the result of a casting process.

In order to confirm this conclusion, a group of 29 arbitrarily selected Namban

tuba was examined and each tsuba was graded according to the presence of four

indicators of casting, as follows:

1. The presence of surface granularity and porosity, with or without 'sand bubbles'.

2. The presence of investment material — a residue of a red, granular nature was

discounted.

3. The presence of 'feathering' in the openwork.

4. A lack of crispness in the incised areas.”

 

(for a possible comparison picture of item #1 explained above I refer the reader to this forum thread-

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50495-sand-cast/

and my post of Friday -11/15/24-at 7:17AM)

 

So, again, some interesting stuff on cast iron tsuba!

 

This has been my thing (and a few others) for about 2 years and 10 months.

 

I am not going to let it go until a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test to discern between cast iron and hand forged iron is discovered!

 

Only in that way will the nonbelivers ever acknowledge that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period!

 

Otherwise, it is just a best guess by those that still say that cast iron tsuba were not made in the Edo period (even though it has been shown that the NBTHK has papered cast iron tsuba - please refer to my previous post above).

 

Onward!