Tsuba casting molds ?

[1kinko]

My understanding is that yamagane is just impure copper. Years ago I did XRF analyses on impure copper from several different locations in the upper peninsula of Michigan for another member. They were sent to me as smelted ingots and they were no different from copper in hardness, ductility, or strength. They varied in the amount of arsenic, zinc, and chloride mainly. I have used them in inlays and they patinate only slightly differently in Rokusho/Tampan solutions.

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Iekatsu said:

Many people just make subjective assumptions based on the the look, feel and colour of the metal (refer to the quote you posted above), this is even true in well known publications and books by well meaning experts.

Yes this is likely true - however you have presented no evidence at all. [even if 50% of what Vashavsky has said is wrong - that leaves 50% correct?] You have stated your findings limited to a set number of tests, but we are forced to just take your word. [you may well be correct but a statement is not evidence] Opinions by "experts" not backed up by evidence can only be classed as hearsay. 

The argument I am having is not about certain types of metal, it is the persistent number of replies to posts throughout the entire forum where opinions are given that are not backed up with facts we can check. You had the opportunity to check my references but we have not had the pleasure of yours - [I am very sure you can supply them so why not include it in the post?]

I hope it has come across this is not a personal attack it is a frustration aimed at a large number of members quick to give opinions but less inclined to show us how they have reached those opinions. [Is this not a fair request?]

 

PS. Thomas, nice to have a little argument with someone in the same country for a change.   

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dale,

With all due respect to Vashavsky, he collates information that has been published in various books, on websites and information given on items purchased, and he does a very good job of it, but a citable source it is not, and there is no information on how the material attribution was reached. I am happy to share a single example, but this is part of active research I am conducting and when I am I ready to release the full results I will. I am not here to convince you or anyone else of anything, I just have knowledge in the area and thought it was worth mentioning. Below is a classic Kagami-shi Tsuba, I actually have two in this style, likely from the same workshop and you can see a similar example published in the Sasano's Kagamishi Tsuba book.

The composition is:
Copper 83% 
Tin 12.88%
Iron 0.88% 
Silver 0.37%
The remaining being made of trace elements of various things.


 

[OceanoNox]

I am not familiar with XRF, I only use XRD at work (and am limited to about 20μm depth of analysis on a polished surface). Does anybody know the penetration depth with various XRF devices?

Kawami did try the method on iron tsuba, and his analysis basically yielded the composition of the patina only (indicated by the clear presence of copper, which appears to correspond to the patina recipes).

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I was looking around the forum and found a thread from 2019.

 

It is interesting and talks about cast iron tsuba.  The title of the thread is "Tochibata cast tsuba".  The link to the thread is listed below-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30579-tochibata-cast-tsuba/

 

I quote a part of the first post on that thread-

 

“School as Tochibata, a group of blacksmiths who made farm implements and seemed to have made tsuba as a sideline.”

 

Just some more interesting stuff!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Dan tsuba]

Oh well,

 

I just happened to notice that this thread went from 24K views to 24.4K views in about 7 days (more or less).

 

So, let’s look at this another way.

 

Why all of a sudden is there interest in this thread?  I mean this thread hasn’t garnered any interest in about 5 or 6 months!

 

So, who thinks they may have cast iron tsuba in their collection made in the Edo period to take the time to read this thread and learn about the possibility of Edo period cast iron tsuba?

 

You all know about my thoughts on the subject!

 

Those of you that think they may have cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period, pictures are always welcome to be evaluated by me and other (much more knowledgeable than I am !) members on this forum!

[Spartancrest]

At last a good use for CAST tsuba. I converted this cast guard into a door handle on my barn door. 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

An article I found written by-

 

Markus Sesko

Japanese Arms and Armor

Cast Sword Fittings

Posted on 2016/01/20 by Markus Sesko under Uncategorized    

 

Found at this website-

https://markussesko....cast-sword-fittings/

 

I quote part of the article referenced above-

 

“Back to the early Edo period. Now every sword and short sword that was worn when on duty had to be equipped with a proper tsuba, tsukamaki, fuchigashira, and menuki. (Again, I am not talking about special cases, koshigatana with unwrapped hilts, swords in private collections etc. I am referring to the majority of swords.) Now comes some numbers game. It is estimated that the samurai class made up about 10% of the Japanese population. In the early Edo period, Japan had a population of about 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 and about steady 30,000,000 from Genroku (1688-1704) to the end of the Edo period. So if we start with 12,000,000, about 2,500,000 swords (daishô, thus times two the 10%) have been worn at any given day in the early, and about 6,000,000 swords throughout the later Edo period. Well, tsuba and sword fittings were of course reused and handed down in the peaceful Edo period but still, there must had been a production line for the cheaper swords and therefore it is in my opinion only logical to accept that there were many more of such cast workshops like the one discovered in Nara. I also think that the majority of these relative cheap fittings just did not survive or was melted down for casting metal fittings. Thus we are hardly talking about them today.”

 

The Nara site discovery was referred to by me in my first post to this thread.

 

Although, Mr. Sesko doesn’t specifically mention anything about cast iron tsuba in his article. 

 

But it does not take a large stretch of the imagination to surmise that cast iron tsuba could have been made.  Especially by kettle makers in the Edo period (as previously mentioned somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread!).

 

Just some more food for thought!

[Rivkin]

Ok, writing in a "popular style" without any actual quotes because I am lazy, generally 10% though appearing in English language literature has been corrected downwards in the past 50 years. Its a typical number for Tozama daimyo (the greatest offenders would be Uesugi with like >30%, Satsuma >20%, Mori >15% - going purely by memory) due to land confiscation but the percentage drops significantly with daimyo like Maeda (special case) and all Tokugawa retainers like lesser Mitsudaira families. The overall was closer to 5% around Genroku (it was higher at the end of Muromachi, possibly towards 15%).

Out of those we subtract women and small children. Daisho is a weird thing in a sense it does appears in documents and early paintings, but then it quickly disappears from sources coming back around 1800s... So did samurai wear daisho in mid Edo is not clear to most likely negative. The samurai right per se was not wearing daisho but wearing the long sword. There are however later sources specifying daisho most likely for the reason that a "semi-samurai" like Goto family was usually given a personal right to wear a daito in court processions but were not given a right to wear it at ordinary times as a daisho would have been worn after 1800s.

 

How many swords did an ordinary samurai had? Its a very good question and general answer is that sub-100 koku samurai (i.e. 90% of the class) from a few families studied would have literally a few blades in a household - two-four waki, two-four daito. Generally the ratio of 1.5 daito per adult samurai appears plausible.

Upper ranks would either be "mini-Daimyo" which is hatamoto in case of Tokugawa or similar class for Tozama with 1500-5000 koku, but they would have a large samurai retinue of their own. The "working samurai" ceiling is closer to either 150-200 koku level or the maximum of 500 koku which would be the top executive for a major Daimyo family. They would however have subservient families to pay as well... Overall "collections" of hundreds of blades start at Daimyo level and everything at and above Rai Kunimitsu cutdown waki is priced outside working bushi... Which we also see in gifts since even such "lesser" blade per modern higher end collector would in fact be a typical level of a Shogun's gift to a hakamoto in charge of a major project.

 

Going back to numbers... Tokugawa parade in Kyoto had a roaster of more than 450,000 samurai participants which should be close to every single adult samurai who could be mustered. the total number was probably closer to 600,000. Funny enough procession required new gear but obviously we see no evidence of hundreds of thousands koshirae ordered in one year...

So we have a total of about 1,000,000 daito, and possibly lesser number of wakizashi (there is no setting requiring one to wear wakizashi and not say tanto so in case of need wakizashi was not needed at all)... which is however compensated by wealthier peasants having considerable supplies of yari and naginata and merchants/wealthier peasants having wakizashi as well.

 

So much wording and different method of calculation still arrives at the same number of about 2,500,000 swords... 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Rivkin.

 

So, by your calculations the number of swords in the early Edo period was comparable to what Mr. Sesko stated.

 

And I quote Mr. Sesko again-

 

“about 2,500,000 swords (daishô, thus times two the 10%) have been worn at any given day in the early, and about 6,000,000 swords throughout the later Edo period.”

 

But my latest post is about  the possibility of cast iron tsuba (being made by kettle makers) being used on some of those millions of swords. 

 

So, what do you think about that possibility?

[Rivkin]

Sorry, no idea... I am not that familiar with cast iron tsuba. I would cast soft metal before doing iron in any case.

[Iekatsu]

11 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

But it does not take a large stretch of the imagination to surmise that cast iron tsuba could have been made.  Especially by kettle makers in the Edo period (as previously mentioned somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread!).

Dan, the problem is that it is a logic leap, you are not applying a scientific method to your research, starting with a conclusion and trying to find evidence to support the theory has inherent bias. They were casting soft metal Tsuba, it has a long history and there is plenty of evidence to support this, including the site discovered in Nara. You are assuming that it would naturally lead to casting in iron, but there was not necessarily a need or demand to do it in iron, soft metal is perfectly functional for the task, it is much easier to cast and likely more cost effective. Until further evidence surfaces (and it may in the future) it is just a theory that is not yet supported by evidence, none of the evidence that has been provided thus far is sufficient.

[1kinko]

I discussed this issue with Ford several times. Markus's translations did not recognize the use of the term casting as referring to the method of producing the tsuba blank as opposed to the final form of the tsuba. All soft metal tsuba undergo casting, while all iron/steel tsuba had to be firmed into a plate by hammering the products of the tatara. Dan has been told this repeatedly.

[Dan tsuba]

"Tsuba - Cast iron - Lattice Window - Antique Tsuba for Samurai Sword - Japan - Edo Period (1600-1868)".  Listed by an art dealer in the Netherlands on 19 Dec 2020 as being from Japan (picture shown below).

 

Now I know all the negative replies (and dislike) that will come from this!  Some will probably state that the art dealer doesn’t know what he is talking about.  Others may state that the art dealer is not an expert.  And other stuff will probably be stated (and it has all been stated before in this thread).

 

But at least the art dealer was brazen enough to list it as “cast iron”.

 

Now how could the dealer be sure it was cast iron?

 

No one can be sure unless they subject the piece to noninvasive metallurgical testing.  Which was mentioned several times in this thread!

 

Not even the so-called experts, or anybody else can be sure.

 

No, my friends, I am not going to let this cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period thing go.

 

No matter how many downvotes I get!

 

How many possible cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period do you have in your collection?

 

Just some more interesting stuff! 

 

Onward!

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

Just a thought-

 

Probably most collectors find it difficult to acknowledge that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period.  Maybe they don't want it to appear that they made an error buying a tsuba that they thought was hand forged and someday may turn out to actually be cast iron (since they didn’t have a microscope handy to make their decision).  Also, some dealers perhaps think a tsuba may be cast iron, but they can’t determine that for sure.  Because even with a microscope to look for casting flaws, it may be impossible for a dealer to make a determination on a well-made cast iron tsuba and differentiate it from a hand forged tsuba.

 

So, everybody is doing the very best they can to decide on a piece they want to purchase (hand forged or possibly cast iron?) or to correctly list the tsuba that is being sold.  But, at times, that may just be a very difficult (or impossible) thing to do.

 

On page 8 of this thread, I showed a new cast iron bottle opener made in Japan (by a 15^th generation kettle maker) using the old ways (sand cast).  Picture is attached below.

 

It is a beautiful thing and doesn't take a large stretch of the imagination to see how easy it would have been for kettle makers in the Edo period to make tsuba.

 

I also have a nice old cast iron kettle that has some good details on it (and there are many other old kettles that have much more beautiful motifs on them).  A picture of my kettle is also shown below.

 

I believe it would be an easy thing for kettle makers in the Edo period to make cast iron tsuba.

 

One day when a cheap non-invasive metallurgical way to determine the difference between cast iron and hand forged iron is found, or if any old documents in Japan stating that kettle makers made cast iron tsuba are found (which may never happen since in the old days most everything was handed down by oral tradition-as stated before somewhere in this thread!)  Then, and only then, will people believe that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

But that won’t probably happen in my lifetime!

 

Like I stated at the beginning of this post, just a thought.

 

Let the downvotes continue!

 

Onward!

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Oh noooooooooo, the pain!!!!

[Kantaro]

Found a cast iron one:

 

時代武具　鉄地葉透かし鍔　江戸時代/鐔/24J053 | Jauce Shopping Service | Yahoo Japan Auctions. eBay Japan

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Paris, for your assistance!

 

But, as I have found out during the course of this thread, just because a seller labels something as Edo doesn’t mean that it was actually made during that period of Japanese history.

 

The tsuba you pictured does appear to be made from cast iron, although I am not sure that it is an Edo period tsuba (although it could be!).

 

Now, finding a cast iron tsuba that has been certified as being made in the Edo period by the NBTHK would be nice.

 

I think I have actually found a few of those and posted them on this thread quite a while ago.

 

I am still searching for any, off and on!

[Dan tsuba]

So, thanks to Paris for getting me out there and looking at papered tsuba (that could be made from cast iron and are certified by the NBTHK as Edo period).

 

Found this tsuba pictured below (with papers).

 

NBTHK certified it (as Hozon), and stated it was made in the Edo period.

 

The surface texture of this tsuba looks to be that it was sand cast.  Also, look at the casting flaws and some unfinished edges.

 

And notice the typical bottle type designed nakago-ana found on a majority of cast iron pieces.

 

Part of the description given by the dealer was (who is in Japan)-

 

“This Tsuba is recognized by The Society for Preservation of Japanese Art Swords, which is known as NBTHK. According to the certificate, this Tsuba is categorized as Akasaka Tsuba (赤坂鍔), which is attributed to Akasaka school makers.”

 

 

Of course, me thinknig it is made from cast iron is just my opinion!

[ZH1980]

Dan - as a new member to this forum, I have greatly appreciated your detailed guidance on spotting “fake tsuba,” as well as your general orientation to more accessible collecting, which promotes and expands this hobby; all great IMHO!

 

With this said, your continued argument for your thesis seems unreasonably dismissive of your colleagues’ thoughtful points. I’ll add an additional perspective, which, admittedly, has been stated in other ways in this thread. From a social science perspective, if cast iron tsuba were made with any degree of prevalence during the Edo Period, we would certainly expect to see clear and regular reference to cast iron tsuba in period specific text, directives, and even law. There seems to be a striking lack of that literary and documentary evidence. 

Others have pointed out the dangers of confirmation bias in these types of examinations, but I think it’s important to restate how much such bias hinders the pursuit of truth. 
 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Zachary H.,

 

Beautifully written and well stated!

 

As you stated “if cast iron tsuba were made with any degree of prevalence during the Edo Period, we would certainly expect to see clear and regular reference to cast iron tsuba in period specific text, directives, and even law. There seems to be a striking lack of that literary and documentary evidence.”

 

There seems to be a “striking lack of that literary and documentary evidence” because (as has been stated before on this thread) in the old days of Japanese history many things were communicated by oral tradition only.

 

And let us not forget that to possibly acknowledge that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period, would greatly tip the scales of tsuba collecting knowledge.

 

I will continue in my endeavors to try to show that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period.

 

It is not only educational for me, but it is fun!

 

I thank you for your knowledge and opinions.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[ZH1980]

Good point regarding oral tradition, though the Edo Period was notable for the transition away from oral traditions, with the Tokogawa Shogunate being known for its highly bureaucratic nature and reliance on written rulemaking for purposes of social order, etc. Additionally, adult literacy rates spiked to 40-50% in Japan (with, of course, higher rates being seen in urban areas) during this period, which is a clear indicator pointing to the importance of the written word.
 

I don’t think you should discount what appears to be nearly an absolute absence of literary evidence supporting your thesis. Japan during the Edo Period was significantly more culturally advanced than prior and other societies that relied on highly mailable oral tradition. 

[Dan tsuba]

Again, my friend Zachary.

 

Your knowledge and education shines through!

 

I may not be as educated as you (obviously, because of your brilliant posts!), but I am certain that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

My goal is to one day prove that.

 

It all comes down to non-invasive metallurgical testing.

 

Even Dr. Lissenden, stated that many Namban tsuba may be cast.

 

And he stated that in his thesis for a master’s degree in 2002.

 

Unfortunately, he is now deceased (which is a total bummer!).

 

I will not let this cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period thing go.

 

Although many members may consider me totally wrong!

 

I have battled many negative posts on this thread.

 

But hey, my friend, it is all just part of me being stubborn.

 

I don’t care how many thorns get stuck in people’s backsides!

 

Again,

 

Thank you for your opinions, and keep those posts coming!

 

And with respect,

Dan

 

 

[KungFooey]

Real interesting idea Dan!

 

I found this in an Japanese auction and I'd bet money it's sandcasted (but not the 138 bucks they want!)

[Spartancrest]

    compare it to this one from:  The Token Society of GB - Scotland Branch.December 3, 2021

 

 

   Cast one is missing some fine elements and has lots of small bubbles in the metal- pretty poor work.

 

What I find interesting is both these tsuba show the ura view - almost like the owner doesn't know the correct orientation of either?

[DoTanuki yokai]

 

You can also make forged metal look like it has a sand casted surface and proves nothing for me. 
 

11 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

 

My goal is to one day prove that.

 

I think this is the main problem here. 
And your breaking test on a sand casted pan is really not very meaningful because of the fact that modern sand casting is an scientifically advanced process and the alloys and their properties are selected for the area of application and have not much in common with the traditional methods. 
 

[Dan tsuba]

Christian,

 

You stated in your last post that –

 

“You can also make forged metal look like it has a sand casted surface and proves nothing for me.”

 

So, are you saying that there are Edo period hand forged tsuba that have been made to appear as if they were sand cast cast-iron?  If so, I would like to see some pictures of those tsuba!

 

And, amazing how some items in my previous post are just overlooked!

 

I refer you to this statement in my previous post-

 

“It all comes down to non-invasive metallurgical testing.

Even Dr. Lissenden, stated that many Namban tsuba may be cast.

And he stated that in his thesis for a master’s degree in 2002.”

 

If you read Dr. Lissenden’s excellent thesis, you will find out that he stated that he thought non-invasive means of testing was the only way to ascertain if a tsuba is made from cast iron or is hand forged.

 

He also describes various casting methods used in early Japan.

 

Dr. Lissenden’s thesis has been referred to several times in this thread.

 

It can be found here (with its 11 pages of references – Bibliography)-

 

http://etheses.dur.a...4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

Happy reading!

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, I am “signing off” of this thread for a while.

 

According to many members during the course of this thread, there were no cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period.

 

So that would mean that all cast iron tsuba made in Japan started to be made the day after the Edo period until the present time.

 

Right!  That makes no sense to me at all and is totally unbelievable.

 

Some members are ignoring the innate ingenuity of the Japanese kettle makers, the ability of the Japanese to identify a profitable business venture, and the cast-iron sand-casting abilities of master kettle makers that may go back several generations (a current kettle maker in Japan goes back 16 generations!).

 

Some members state that there has been no evidence shown of cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period.  Have they even read this thread in its entirety?

 

This thread has taken the dedicated effort of several members over the last (about) 2 years and 10 months.

 

Those dedicated members have backed up their posts with stated references and pictures.

 

It is not just about opinions, as several members over the years just seem to only state opinions but conveniently overlook to state their references.

 

Either you believe (as I do) that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period, or you are just flat-earthers (non-believers).

 

Wait until a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test for cast iron is developed. 

 

We will see then who is right and who is wrong.

 

Until then, we can just keep arguing about this thing until hell freezes over!

 

Once again (as in the past), I think I will take a break from this thread for a while.

 

Don’t all cheer!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

[Spartancrest]

14 hours ago, KungFooey said:

I found this in an Japanese auction

https://www.ebay.com/itm/226287832244    I like the description: High quality Japanese Sword Guard Phoenix From Japan EDO

Unsigned Beautiful collector's item. [Really?] Antique Original, Age 1850-1899 [Really really!] 

 

I am always a bit suspicious of the slotted sekigane look and the lack of tagane-ato [not even cast in] and you have to wonder where that dimple at the base of the birds neck came from if it wasn't a casting fault. JMHO

[DoTanuki yokai]

On 11/8/2024 at 8:09 PM, Dan tsuba said:

 

 

The surface texture of this tsuba looks to be that it was sand cast.  Also, look at the casting flaws and some unfinished edges.

 

And notice the typical bottle type designed nakago-ana found on a majority of cast iron pieces.

 

I was mainly talking about this Tsuba that I think isn’t cast. 
I don’t see any clear evidence for casting and think that some parts are just naturally corroded over time.

There are many ways to create the iron patina and some may leave a surface that could me misinterpreted as looking casted.
 

I have read the part about casting from Dr. Lissenden. 
So the idea is that making it the „traditional“ way was too Labour intense, but I think that was very cheap. 
How much more charcoal and people would be needed to get the iron to melting temperature that generates additional expenses. 
 

So I cannot really say what would be the cheaper way of making them. 
 

At some point I stopped following the thread and just want to say something because the NBTHK papered Tsuba looks not cast for me. 
 

http://www.ksky.ne.j...umie99/episodes.html