Tsuba casting molds ?

[Tensho]

If it wasn't for the horrible looking Mei I would not have thought anything. 

 

Here's a similar rough looking one. Description says its an edo period "copy" but still sold for several hundred it looks like. 

[Spartancrest]

How did they make this tsuba? That "signature" is awful but there is a huge amount of detail and inlay done on it at the same time. A cast blank that was reworked? Why didn't they wait and cut the mei in when they were doing all the fine detail? Makes little sense to me.

Why do these sites show such badly lit images - what are they trying so badly to hide! [ It took me seconds to bring the image out so you can see it]

 

While looking for this tsuba on Google image [found it  https://www.ricecrac...207_tsuba_soten.html] 

I noticed this one https://new.uniqueja...mi-kuniyoshi-katana/ with Certification: NBTHK Hozon (A sword designated worthy of conserving by the Society for the Preservation of Japanese Art Swords)

Unfortunately with this extremely common [bloody awful] cast tsuba - embarrassing to have on any sword!  So why would you send such a crappy tsuba on your sword to Shinsa? [Sympathy?] 

 

[Steves87]

I would vote for those mei being "stamped" in (character line by character line), or indented/punched versus chiselled, ie no stock removal, just base metal displacement.

And if that was the case, then it would stand more chance of surviving by not being cast.

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, referring to a water kettle with a tsuba that I posted on October 15, 2023 (some pictures below).

 

Obviously that tsuba is made from cast iron.  Whether cast in the Edo period or not is impossible to determine.  Probably the only way to deterimie if it was actually cast would be to subject it to non-invasive metallurgical testing.

 

I purchased a similar tsuba that was pictured on that water kettle a couple of weeks ago (pictures also attached).  That tsuba has a mei.

 

There are a plethora of these similar motif tsuba being sold on various purchase sites.

 

How is it possible to determine a hand forged from a cast iron one of these?  I know that a mei can be “faked”, the tsuba could have been made after the Edo period and a “fake” mei from the Edo period added to that tsuba.  Or the tsuba could have been made in the Edo period with no mei, and a “fake” mei added later.  Or the tsuba and the mei can reflect the actual maker of the tsuba in the Edo period.

 

Without taking a hammer to the piece and seeing if it is brittle and breaks (cast iron), how does anyone determine such things?

 

I even have discovered that if a tsuba like this is papered by the NBTHK, it still can be very misleading.  I have found that the old green papers can be incorrect and themselves could have been forged!

 

Are we all just “floundering” around when it comes to the more inexpensive type of iron tsuba and just must take our chances?  Who is right in their determination if a tsuba is hand forged and not cast?  Who is wrong?  I mean can a description of a tsuba being listed by a reputable seller be wrong?

 

I know, maybe I am just overthinking this thing.  But how can tsuba collectors be certain of anything with so many variables that turn up and present themselves?  I mean is it possible that knowledgeable people could be incorrect in their determination?  I have even heard were the NBTHK could make mistakes!

 

Always with respect,

Dan

 

 

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Who is right in their determination if a tsuba is hand forged and not cast? 

I know what you mean - it really comes down to fine details I guess [and sometimes that is all it can be - a guess] I was doing some work last night on a tsuba collection with a similar Echizen Kinai guard and found another as a comparison on ebay and yet another on a Japanese auction site. Not that I like any of them that much but I could tell with some certainty that the ebay one was a casting. Can you spot the giveaway signs?

 

[ROKUJURO]

The JAUCE auction TSUBA does not look better to me.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So what would be the best "guess" (in Spartancrests post above) when these tsuba were made?  Edo?  Meijii?  Can it actually be discerned?  Who knows?

 

Hand forged? Cast?  What are the "tells" to look for?  Can anyone actually know for sure without subjecting these pieces to noninvasive metallurgical testing?

 

I can't wait for someone (I mean we are in the 21st century!) to develop an inexpensive way of testing these things.  The question is why hasen't something like that been done yet?

 

Even if something like that was available, maybe many individuals don't really want to know if a tsuba they purchased as hand forged could actually turn out to have been cast?

 

With respect,

Dan

[DoTanuki yokai]

I also think the Jauce auction Tsuba is more suspicious and can imagine that the eBay one is overcleaned so I miss a certain proof for a cast one. 
I’m not saying it is not cast.

[Spartancrest]

Ebay one has some rather jagged casting spurs in the sukashi and numerous 'holes/ bubbles'.

It is pretty likely all three examples are 'bad', the museum image has been enhanced. It may have been mounted.

  image from museum [why do museums often take such poor images]

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So, once again, I was stumbling around on the internet!

 

I found something interesting relating to the aoi leaves and cast iron(?) tsuba shown and mentioned in the above posts.

 

It was found at the below weblink-

   

https://babel.hathit...60/t0tr0c195&seq=166

 

It is a book about “Japanese sword-mounts; a descriptive catalogue of the collection of J. C. Hawkshaw... comp. and illustrated by Henri L. Joly,” published in 1910.

 

From page 72 of that book-

 

“830 - Iron;, two aoi leaves within a circular rim. Signed : Kinai of Echizen (? cast;). xix.”.

 

I could not find the picture they were referring to (maybe I missed that?)

 

So even in 1910 they were not sure if something was hand forged or cast iron as stated by the (? cast) in the above tsuba description of #830!  And that was only 42 years after the end of the Edo period, so really not that long after the end of that period of Japanese history!

 

Onward!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

 

8 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

“830 - Iron;, two aoi leaves within a circular rim. Signed : Kinai of Echizen (? cast;). xix.”.

 

I could not find the picture they were referring to (maybe I missed that?)

 

https://ia801605.us....gueofjapan00glen.pdf

 

CATALOGUE of a Japanese Collection

The Property of
J. C. HAWKSHAW, ESQ., M.A.,
Of Hollycombe, Liphook.  1911

515. Iron, two stems of aoi ; Signed : Kinai of Echizen.

517. Iron, a coiled dragon in the round : Signed : Kinai of Echizen.
Iron, two aoi leaves, inlaid with karakusa, gold wire nunome ; Signed : Kinai of Echizen. Iron, two aoi leaves ; Signed : Kinai of Echizen. Iron, a leaf of aoi : Signed : Kinai of Echizen.

 

Likely the Aoi leaf guard was sold in this auction. Joly didn't take images of the majority of Hawkshaw's collection it was just too big.

I have toyed with the idea of doing a condensed book of Hawkshaw's tsuba collection concentrating only on those pieces that are illustrated. [descriptions are well and good but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words!]

 

 

One I have prepared earlier 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Dale i thought the "jagged casting" parts in the ebay Tsuba could also be the result of delaminations in the iron of the tsuba.

I think the picture is not good enough to be sure 

[ROKUJURO]

Chris,

I have never seen material coming out of delaminations except possibly corrosion.

[Spartancrest]

Far too many faults to have been intentionally carved this way. Have a close look at the site images  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/315125444580  also the seppa-dai has the remains of an obliterated signature. No sign that it was ever mounted and I doubt very much it would stand up to a tagane-ato punch without breaking.

 

Compare to these  https://www.Japanese...echizen-kinai-tsuba/

and  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315129324245   not perfect by any means but far better than the one pictured.

We all realise that the Kinai school churned these out in the hundreds but some were churned out with no real quality control.

[DoTanuki yokai]

7 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Chris,

I have never seen material coming out of delaminations except possibly corrosion.

At least the big one in the rim looked for me like someone put a screwdriver into a gap 

 

I think you guys will be right but I always think they had a lot of time to take damage from various sources. 

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

they had a lot of time to take damage from various sources. 

They sure did, I think that point is most of the argument. Just how long have some of these been getting around?

There are plenty of really well made pieces that have suffered badly through abuse or neglect so it gets hard guessing just how good they started out as. Cast pieces are in the same boat. It keeps us guessing 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all (again!).

 

So, there I was again searching the internet.  One thing led to another, and I got referred to some previous threads on this forum dealing with cast iron tsuba in the Edo period.

 

Looking at those threads, it reminded me of how on a forum some very interesting threads (at least I think they were interesting - and yes- I contributed to those threads!) can get “lost” in the shuffle!

 

I include those weblinks below for anyone that is interested.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/43646-an-edo-period-cast-iron-tsuba/

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44471-edo-period-cast-tsuba/

 

The adventure continues!

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So here is something of interest that I was advised by a friend to look at.  It is the “Shinsa Standards: (amended by May 19, 2015)" and can be downloaded from the below weblink-

 

https://nbthk-ab2.org/shinsa-standards/

 

The area under “Tosogu (Fittings) Hozon Tosogu” is of particular interest since it mentions cast fittings! The several numbered areas of that particular area of the article need to be read.  Now, I interpret what was stated as cast iron, cast copper, and cast bronze tosogu!

 

The adventure continues!

With respect,

Dan

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dan,

There is no mention of cast iron in the above standards, it is well established that there are cast bronze Tsuba that pre-date the Meiji period and that they pass for papers at all levels.

[Spartancrest]

Perhaps the Shinsa assessment needs a bit of an update and clarification? - It does not specifically say what castings or what they are cast in - ambiguous and a little misleading. [If you are spending big money on an assessment wouldn't you like to know that at least it will be assessed?]

It might well be that cast kinko tsuba are "well established" and pre-date the Meiji period - the question still remains can we pre-date cast iron to the Edo period. [Certainly we have ample evidence of them from the Meiji period .]

[ROKUJURO]

As far as I know, different copper alloys, including brass, were used to pre-cast TSUBA blanks for the manufacture of KINKO TSUBA, but bronze is not mentioned.

[Ynot]

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Tony.

 

So, what exactly are you inferring by underlining “Works of iron” in the Shinsa Standards?  Are you equating “works of iron” with only hand forged tsuba?  If I am incorrect in what I think you stated I apologize, but I will go on.

 

Some posts in this thread explain how cast iron could be re-heated, softened and hand worked.  So, cast iron could be a “work of iron”.  Have you read the entire thread?

 

I have spent over 2 years on this thread and I am no longer interested in doing more research.  I know that I (and a few other members) have provided enough research, evidence, and proof to show that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Iekatsu]

Jean,

 

Bronze is used in Kagamishi tsuba.

 

Dan,

 

You have not provided suffcient evidence to convince most people following this thread.

 

The hunt continues.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Thomas!  

 

I quote a part of your post-

 

“Dan,

You have not provided suffcient evidence to convince most people following this thread.

The hunt continues.”

 

Well, for me, the hunt is over.  I am done with my research!

 

Also, it must have taken you a very long time to contact most people following this thread and find out if they think I (and a few others) have not provided sufficient evidence to convince them that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

Or was that statement just your opinion?

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

15 hours ago, Iekatsu said:

Bronze is used in Kagamishi tsuba.

As is Yamagane which is a different metal to Bronze.

 

A quote:

 

"I will defy anyone to positively classify a soft metal tsuba as being yamagane or copper of varying degrees of purity, any of the many varieties of bronze/brass, and an almost infinite variety of related alloys without solid analytical analysis. Speculating on metal composition based solely on it's present patina is simply guesswork.  I must admit, and I think I can reasonably claim some expertise in this area  , when I read such confidant commentary about metal composition I do sometimes feel like Alice in Wonderland  .

 

What I'd strongly argue for is a far more rigorous basis in terms of evidence when we make our assumptions."

 

Now who said that?

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dan,

My opinion of course, but there has been quite a bit of push back from various members over the life of this thread, I think that fundamentally it comes down to the quality of the supporting evidence and the fact that a rigorous research methodology has not been applied.

I am sorry to hear that you are done with research into this topic, I for one will keep an open mind and look forward to seeing if any new evidence/research surfaces.

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dale,

 

I study Kagamishi tsuba, I have an extensive collection and have had them tested using an XRF machine, all the examples I have tested are bronze in composition. Yamagane is not really a suitable material for casting and this is reflected in the extant examples.

 

[Spartancrest]

 

Other extant examples: would seem to dispute that Yamagane is not suitable for casting, perhaps a broader research is needed?

5 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

"What I'd strongly argue for is a far more rigorous basis in terms of evidence when we make our assumptions."

[ I would stress the above quote is not mine but from a long time member of this forum - who can "..reasonably claim some expertise in this area" ]

 

https://varshavskyco...ction/tsu-0399-2019/    =  School: Kagamishi,  Material: Yamagane, Technique: Carving, Cast, Kebori, Low relief carving, Sukashi

https://varshavskyco...collection/tsu-0362/  = School: Kagamishi,  Material: Yamagane, Technique: Cast

 

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dale,

 

Many people just make subjective assumptions based on the the look, feel and colour of the metal (refer to the quote you posted above), this is even true in well known publications and books by well meaning experts. Many of these assumptions are wrong because most people do not have access to equipment to test the material composition, once published it is taken as fact, I have done the tests and formed my own conclusions.

 

(Also only the second example posted is a Kagamishi, the other has been misidentified.)