Tsuba casting molds ?

[zanilu]

I do not like the personal turn this discussion is taking...

 

Usually if you go from quite discussion and reasoning to a personal attack this does not put you in a good light. 

 

This said in this thread I have seen no proof about cast iron tsuba that will stand a peer review in the achademic and scientific sense of the term. The original iphothesis has been assumed right and then all the efforts have been put in proving it right regardless of the objections and counter reasoning. 

 

Unfortunately this is most of the case in our hobby since not much scientific publication are devoted to it. We can at most propose educated guesses and deduction that cannot be proven or disproven. 

 

The opinion of Ford is not equivalent to a scientific proof, but considering his experience and that he has probably seen more extremely high end tusba in his life than all of us put together, it has an enormous weight.

 

Regards

Luca

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Luca!

 

I understand and appreciate what you have stated in your post.

 

And I agree with you that Ford “has probably seen more extremely high end tsuba in his life than all of us put together”.

 

Although it is my understanding that cast iron tsuba were never considered “high end” tsuba.

 

Could anyone actually differentiate between an extremely well-made cast iron tsuba and a well-made hand forged tsuba?

 

As I have stated previously (several times in this thread) I feel the only way that a determination could be made is to subject the piece to non-invasive metallurgical testing (I refer you to Dr. Lissenden's thesis paper and quotes stated in one of my previous posts - to be found on page 12 of this thread - his entire thesis can be found on line).

 

Until that can be done (or someone is willing to take a hammer to a possible cast iron tsuba!) I think that it would be extremely difficult to make an accurate determination.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

do you really believe this was done on a large scale with low-end decoation TSUBA in EDO JIDAI?

Can you "Prove" these weren't?

I really don't understand the hostility to the idea that the very clever Japanese craftsmen knew how to 'dress up' cast items, when at the time they were world leaders in metal work? What possible pain can it cause anyone today to accede to the facts? Is it fear of not getting enough money from selling what turns out to be 'inferior' products? Is it bolstering the belief that "my" collection is perfect and does not have any cast pieces? What is it that people are so afraid of? 

[Spartancrest]

18 minutes ago, 1kinko said:

an attempt to increase the value of inferior tsuba.

You just have it back the front - sellers are trying to get more than they are worth!

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, zanilu said:

his experience and that he has probably seen more extremely high end tusba in his life than all of us put together, it has an enormous weight.

Perhaps true but we are yet again - NOT DEALING WITH HIGH END TSUBA - The expert opinion on onions cannot tell us who grew the best oranges!

[Spartancrest]

32 minutes ago, 1kinko said:

who’s never handled a tsuba blank or tagane knows nothing at all except how to speculate.

This is speculation in itself - you have no knowledge of what other people have done - but please speculate at your leisure, hell you might even get something right once in a while. 

[Spartancrest]

Oh sorry, I leave all carving of cast iron strictly for the Edo period artisans. You are right though, my taste in gaudy expensive never used, tsuba looking things, stops with what the true warriors were equipped with, not what their pampered masters could afford to throw in a drawer. My budget however stretches to much more than $100. But thanks for asking.

[Spartancrest]

Lucky you, I have perceived the same thing in people, a lot of crudity and poor taste. 

 

This thread was about evidence and proof - what has been presented is dismissed, but we have enjoyed plenty of dickering and bickering. Personal insults and showmanship abound, but have we got anywhere? 

[Dan tsuba]

Well, my friends,

 

I agree with Spartancrest and his statement quoted here-

 

“This thread was about evidence and proof - what has been presented is dismissed, but we have enjoyed plenty of dickering and bickering. Personal insults and showmanship abound, but have we got anywhere?”

 

No, we have not got anywhere because (in my opinion) “what has been presented is dismissed” because the question of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period comes down to the “dollar bill” in today’s tsuba market (I am certain that you know what I am referring to).

 

As Spartancrest also stated “Personal insults and showmanship abound….”

 

If at any time during the period that this thread has been on this forum (Janurary 2022), if anybody feels that I “insulted them” or was just showing “showmanship”- I do apologize for that.  But as we all know too well, sometimes these threads can get "a little heated"!

 

So, my friends, I am “out of here” for now.  Don’t all cheer!  Ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Evidence ?? why does all the cast Tsuba shown don’t show evidence of being mounted at some point ? 

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

why does all the cast Tsuba shown don’t show evidence of being mounted at some point ?

Why don't all carved tsuba show evidence of being mounted? Change your optometrist and actually have a look- must I show hundreds of examples - again and again - or can you LOOK

[Steves87]

I came across this post on the facebook today. Not saying these have anything to do with casting Tsuba or not, but I thought it might be ok to post here as these could be used within a process for creating moulds.

[Brian]

Not for molds, but for keeping a record of work and basically "filing" the designs.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again!

 

I decided to post more information here because of another thread that I started.  That thread is-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/47395-tsuba-purchasing-for-new-collectors/

 

There was a post by a member on the other thread which renewed my interest in this thread.

 

If you refer to one of my previous posts on this thread, you will find out about a cast iron tsuba that I have.

 

That post is on page 7 of this thread (Nov 17^th, 2022).

 

It shows and explains a tsuba in my collection.  If you look close at the pictures (I have 2 of the same tsuba) you will notice that the tsuba (specifically on the tsuba shown on the right) has faint seppa marks on the seppa-dai (referring in my response here to something that was stated on the former thread listed).

 

Now, what is also interesting is that on this thread on a post that is dated June 21^st, 2023 (page 12), I have referred to a Japanese dealer’s website.  That website is-

 

cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)

 

On that website you can see the exact same tsuba as mine and it is shown in pieces as a cast iron tsuba.

 

(Pictures of my cast iron tsuba and the dealer’s broken cast iron tsuba are attached.)

 

And on another one of my posts dated June 27^th, 2023 (page 12), you can read where I contacted the dealer and they stated-

 

“Yes, I agree with your opinion.

All the cast iron tsuba look from Edo period for my eye.

cast iron (ksky.ne.jp)

Sincerely yours.

Sumie Kashima, operator of Usagiya”

 

So, there is something for your consideration!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all-

 

So, I was looking at purchase sites the other day (my usual morning routine!) and a tsuba just “jumped out at me”!

 

A few pictures and a summation of the write up from the site are shown below.

 

Now, I can never prove it is cast iron (unless I bought it and took a hammer to it!).

 

But (in my opinion) to my eyes, it looks cast!  I arrived at that conclusion by looking at Soto school pieces in the Ashmolean Museum, The A. H. Church Collection of Japanese Sword-Guards (Tsuba) at the below link-

 

http://jameelcentre....ection/7/10237/10366

 

On the tsuba shown below, the mei looks like it was cast. 

 

Also, the nakago-ana has those (more or less) horizontal looking type slots in the top and bottom of it.  I find that those slots usually appear on cast iron tsuba, so the tagane-ato punch marks do not have to be put into the cast iron tsuba to place the sekigane into the nakago-ana (if sekigane was needed).  If tagane-ato punch marks were to be put on a cast iron tsuba, the tsuba would probably (because there are other factors to consider) crack, split, and break!

 

For me, those horizontal slots in the nakago-ana to hold the sekigane are a marker or tell that I use to help me determine if the tsuba could be possibly cast iron or is hand forged.

 

The tsuba shown is even missing a copper face of a figure on the left hand of the tsuba (omote side).

 

Is it possible that the tsuba craftsman of the time (possibly in the Edo period?) cast and hand worked these tsuba in an “assembly line” type fashion?

 

The tsuba was cast, then it was filed, and then the artist painted some motif on with gold paint, and then glued the copper (or other types of metal) faces on the figures?

 

If you look closely at the pictures, you can ascertain some unfiled areas of the tsuba (like around the chrysanthemums) and some areas that are slightly raised but were forgotten to have been painted (like on the sleeve and robe of the figure on the right of the tsuba).

 

You can also see other areas of the tsuba that are undulating, not flat, and appear as casting flaws?

 

Could this particular type of tsuba that is supposed to represent the Soten school have been cast and is not hand forged?

 

Is it as old as the description below states (pre-1800 – personally, I don’t think so)?  Was it only made for the tourist trade?  Are there other examples “out there” but that have sekigane in the nakago-ana to show that they have been mounted?

 

I know I have also seen other similar type (possibly Edo period?) cast iron tsuba on this forum and some are missing one or a few of the faces (as is this tsuba), and some are complete.

 

Although I can’t recall which thread they were shown on!

 

Was this tsuba made in the late Edo period (and I know that is a very difficult -if not impossible-thing to determine!)?  If it is newer than the Edo period, it seems like a lot of work for a craftsman to go through just to make a fake Edo period tsuba, which probably could have been made after the Edo period with a lot less detail and work (then the one shown below) just to sell it to the tourists!

 

And of course, I could be totally wrong about everthing I stated in this post (and I probably am - ha, ha, ha, etc!!) 

I just thought this particular tsuba is very interesting and presents several possible questions.

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

Iron Tsuba Soten, signed made by Mogarashi Sōten,

Primary Material - Iron 

Original/Reproduction - Antique Original

Region of Origin - Japan

Age-   pre-1800

Disclaimer-  I am not an expert, so look at the photographs carefully.

 

[Tensho]

If it wasn't for the horrible looking Mei I would not have thought anything. 

 

Here's a similar rough looking one. Description says its an edo period "copy" but still sold for several hundred it looks like. 

[Spartancrest]

How did they make this tsuba? That "signature" is awful but there is a huge amount of detail and inlay done on it at the same time. A cast blank that was reworked? Why didn't they wait and cut the mei in when they were doing all the fine detail? Makes little sense to me.

Why do these sites show such badly lit images - what are they trying so badly to hide! [ It took me seconds to bring the image out so you can see it]

 

While looking for this tsuba on Google image [found it  https://www.ricecrac...207_tsuba_soten.html] 

I noticed this one https://new.uniqueja...mi-kuniyoshi-katana/ with Certification: NBTHK Hozon (A sword designated worthy of conserving by the Society for the Preservation of Japanese Art Swords)

Unfortunately with this extremely common [bloody awful] cast tsuba - embarrassing to have on any sword!  So why would you send such a crappy tsuba on your sword to Shinsa? [Sympathy?] 

 

[Steves87]

I would vote for those mei being "stamped" in (character line by character line), or indented/punched versus chiselled, ie no stock removal, just base metal displacement.

And if that was the case, then it would stand more chance of surviving by not being cast.

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, referring to a water kettle with a tsuba that I posted on October 15, 2023 (some pictures below).

 

Obviously that tsuba is made from cast iron.  Whether cast in the Edo period or not is impossible to determine.  Probably the only way to deterimie if it was actually cast would be to subject it to non-invasive metallurgical testing.

 

I purchased a similar tsuba that was pictured on that water kettle a couple of weeks ago (pictures also attached).  That tsuba has a mei.

 

There are a plethora of these similar motif tsuba being sold on various purchase sites.

 

How is it possible to determine a hand forged from a cast iron one of these?  I know that a mei can be “faked”, the tsuba could have been made after the Edo period and a “fake” mei from the Edo period added to that tsuba.  Or the tsuba could have been made in the Edo period with no mei, and a “fake” mei added later.  Or the tsuba and the mei can reflect the actual maker of the tsuba in the Edo period.

 

Without taking a hammer to the piece and seeing if it is brittle and breaks (cast iron), how does anyone determine such things?

 

I even have discovered that if a tsuba like this is papered by the NBTHK, it still can be very misleading.  I have found that the old green papers can be incorrect and themselves could have been forged!

 

Are we all just “floundering” around when it comes to the more inexpensive type of iron tsuba and just must take our chances?  Who is right in their determination if a tsuba is hand forged and not cast?  Who is wrong?  I mean can a description of a tsuba being listed by a reputable seller be wrong?

 

I know, maybe I am just overthinking this thing.  But how can tsuba collectors be certain of anything with so many variables that turn up and present themselves?  I mean is it possible that knowledgeable people could be incorrect in their determination?  I have even heard were the NBTHK could make mistakes!

 

Always with respect,

Dan

 

 

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Who is right in their determination if a tsuba is hand forged and not cast? 

I know what you mean - it really comes down to fine details I guess [and sometimes that is all it can be - a guess] I was doing some work last night on a tsuba collection with a similar Echizen Kinai guard and found another as a comparison on ebay and yet another on a Japanese auction site. Not that I like any of them that much but I could tell with some certainty that the ebay one was a casting. Can you spot the giveaway signs?

 

[ROKUJURO]

The JAUCE auction TSUBA does not look better to me.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So what would be the best "guess" (in Spartancrests post above) when these tsuba were made?  Edo?  Meijii?  Can it actually be discerned?  Who knows?

 

Hand forged? Cast?  What are the "tells" to look for?  Can anyone actually know for sure without subjecting these pieces to noninvasive metallurgical testing?

 

I can't wait for someone (I mean we are in the 21st century!) to develop an inexpensive way of testing these things.  The question is why hasen't something like that been done yet?

 

Even if something like that was available, maybe many individuals don't really want to know if a tsuba they purchased as hand forged could actually turn out to have been cast?

 

With respect,

Dan

[DoTanuki yokai]

I also think the Jauce auction Tsuba is more suspicious and can imagine that the eBay one is overcleaned so I miss a certain proof for a cast one. 
I’m not saying it is not cast.

[Spartancrest]

Ebay one has some rather jagged casting spurs in the sukashi and numerous 'holes/ bubbles'.

It is pretty likely all three examples are 'bad', the museum image has been enhanced. It may have been mounted.

  image from museum [why do museums often take such poor images]

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So, once again, I was stumbling around on the internet!

 

I found something interesting relating to the aoi leaves and cast iron(?) tsuba shown and mentioned in the above posts.

 

It was found at the below weblink-

   

https://babel.hathit...60/t0tr0c195&seq=166

 

It is a book about “Japanese sword-mounts; a descriptive catalogue of the collection of J. C. Hawkshaw... comp. and illustrated by Henri L. Joly,” published in 1910.

 

From page 72 of that book-

 

“830 - Iron;, two aoi leaves within a circular rim. Signed : Kinai of Echizen (? cast;). xix.”.

 

I could not find the picture they were referring to (maybe I missed that?)

 

So even in 1910 they were not sure if something was hand forged or cast iron as stated by the (? cast) in the above tsuba description of #830!  And that was only 42 years after the end of the Edo period, so really not that long after the end of that period of Japanese history!

 

Onward!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

 

8 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

“830 - Iron;, two aoi leaves within a circular rim. Signed : Kinai of Echizen (? cast;). xix.”.

 

I could not find the picture they were referring to (maybe I missed that?)

 

https://ia801605.us....gueofjapan00glen.pdf

 

CATALOGUE of a Japanese Collection

The Property of
J. C. HAWKSHAW, ESQ., M.A.,
Of Hollycombe, Liphook.  1911

515. Iron, two stems of aoi ; Signed : Kinai of Echizen.

517. Iron, a coiled dragon in the round : Signed : Kinai of Echizen.
Iron, two aoi leaves, inlaid with karakusa, gold wire nunome ; Signed : Kinai of Echizen. Iron, two aoi leaves ; Signed : Kinai of Echizen. Iron, a leaf of aoi : Signed : Kinai of Echizen.

 

Likely the Aoi leaf guard was sold in this auction. Joly didn't take images of the majority of Hawkshaw's collection it was just too big.

I have toyed with the idea of doing a condensed book of Hawkshaw's tsuba collection concentrating only on those pieces that are illustrated. [descriptions are well and good but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words!]

 

 

One I have prepared earlier 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Dale i thought the "jagged casting" parts in the ebay Tsuba could also be the result of delaminations in the iron of the tsuba.

I think the picture is not good enough to be sure 

[ROKUJURO]

Chris,

I have never seen material coming out of delaminations except possibly corrosion.

[Spartancrest]

Far too many faults to have been intentionally carved this way. Have a close look at the site images  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/315125444580  also the seppa-dai has the remains of an obliterated signature. No sign that it was ever mounted and I doubt very much it would stand up to a tagane-ato punch without breaking.

 

Compare to these  https://www.Japanese...echizen-kinai-tsuba/

and  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315129324245   not perfect by any means but far better than the one pictured.

We all realise that the Kinai school churned these out in the hundreds but some were churned out with no real quality control.

[DoTanuki yokai]

7 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Chris,

I have never seen material coming out of delaminations except possibly corrosion.

At least the big one in the rim looked for me like someone put a screwdriver into a gap 

 

I think you guys will be right but I always think they had a lot of time to take damage from various sources.