Tsuba casting molds ?

[Steve Waszak]

And now to Glen :

 

You set up your first post by saying, "Here are some of my thoughts on this, regardless of the “value” of the objects in question…"

 

Right off the bat, we have a bit of a problem.  For me, disregarding the value of the objects in question is itself a questionable stance.  This is partly due to a matter of practical considerations:  we all have limited resources in time, energy, focus, concentration, etc...  Why devote hours and hours of these resources in a direction where the relative intrinsic value of the objects is so low, and where the value of what is or can be learned is so exceedingly minor?  The initial premise you seem to be starting with is that the "'value' of the objects in question" can or should be divorceable from the various investments in focus, time, and energy spent investigating them, and/or that any inquiry at all has some measure of substantive intrinsic value (knowledge for knowledge's sake).  But if you spend dozens or hundreds of hours researching X, those are hours that could have been spent researching Y, when Y is intrinsically a far more valuable pursuit.  And while knowledge for knowledge's sake can have some (usually trivial) value, it pales next to the pursuit of knowledge where that knowledge is attached to something of infinitely greater importance to the field in question.  

 

Let me ask:  Just because something can be researched, does that mean it should?  Time and effort and energy spent researching one thing is time, effort, and energy not spent researching others.  So, to your Item 1 in your first post, I would agree that dispelling myths is critically important in this field, since there are so many that are pervasive and pernicious.  But why not choose battles that matter more?  Unless one has boundless amounts of time and energy, one cannot do the work to dispell all the myths flying about.  

 

You do describe a proper inductive methodology, however, which is great to see.     "Gathering as much evidence as possible and 'letting the chips fall where they may," as you say, is exactly the right approach.  You then say:

 

"If the evidence gathered ends up supporting or refuting any aspect of the existing views on the topic, or reveals that there is still no definitive answer, then why not try to find out?

Gaining any knowledge at all on the topic is better than to leave it unexplored."

 

Why not try to find out?  Again, is the topic worthy of such effort?  And time?  And thought?  And energy?  When there are so many better topics to devote oneself to?  Really?  I would argue that this topic (when cast iron tsuba were first made in Japan) is not.  My words here echo what I've said above about value, both of the object of focus, intrinsically, and of our own time and effort.  Should a blade scholar and connoisseur spend hours and hours studying the nakago shapes of rapidly-made cheap Muromachi Period swords meant for export?  Why would he?  As I have stressed, if there is value in such efforts such that knowledge of how to avoid being fooled by would-be high-quality items is gained, then those efforts have merit, I think.  But to pursue something like that "for knowledge's sake" does not.  

 

Your second item again returns to the idea of disregarding a tsuba's "value, or lack there-of, in terms of their 'collectability'."  I've already spoken at length on this.  But just to emphasize via a question:  is it really the case that ALL possible topics and sub-topics pertaining to tsuba are equally worthy of intense scrutiny and research and critical inquiry?  Just for the value of knowledge for knowledge's sake?   

 

Item 3 in your first post states:

 

 "Learning about when such techniques began or were amplified, allows for the potential to gain further insights into the cultural, technological and economic conditions that led to those technical shifts.

Why wouldn’t someone want to add to that understanding? It would be adding one more piece of information into a larger whole."

 

Three responses here:  1.  if the techniques and technical shifts in question result in a product whose intrinsic value is low, then the value of the knowledge of those techniques is reduced (not absent, maybe, but reduced).  In the case of attempting to determine when iron tsuba were first cast, the intrinsic value of the product created is indeed low.   2.  How, exactly, are we to "learn about when such techniques (casting of iron tsuba) began or were amplified"?  What methods shall we rely on to determine this?  Printed reference materials would seem not to be of much help, since none survive (apparently) that would have served as contemporary records of the techniques used and when they began.  Can tsuba suspected of being cast be analyzed, whether invasively or otherwise, to determine the age of the item with precision?  If the answer is no, then how can we accomplish this worthy goal?   3.  As to why someone wouldn't want to add to that understanding, again, its a matter of the relative value of doing so, and the investments in time, energy, effort, etc... involved.  

 

Item 4:  Well, if investigative efforts into the literature could result in a reliable, confirmed, original/primary source, then sure, that would be good to find, even for this topic, I guess.  But if initial efforts show that there aren't any such sources, and that all the literature in question that mentions cast iron tsuba production and its origins itself begins with publication dates in the 20th century, then this effort becomes futile.  This is even more the case when one recognizes the pervasiveness of iemoto-ism or "sensei-ism" in so much of the literature in this field.  This factor cannot be overstated as a critical consideration, whether or not one is applying AI-assistance.  

 

Clearly, there is a potent philosophical element involved in determining value, whether we are discussing the value of objects or the value of our research and critical inquiry efforts.  For me, cast iron tsuba are valueless, somewhat akin to painting by numbers.  And so, the sole value (for me) to be gained in looking at or studying cast iron guards is to know how to spot them in order to shun them.  And that means that when they were made is irrelevant.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I do not have access to ChatGPT but I would strongly advice against using it in do research like this. On all cases where I have seen it to be used regarding nihonto, it is just giving misinformation that it is creating out of thin air, usually misinformation that is fitting exactly to the question that the person asking the question wants to hear, creating a false narrative.

 

As for the reference books provided by ChatGPT, I believe for the Japanese reference names, it is also creating them, making them appear as looking like genuine references. I am not a fittings guy and I have limited resources on them but hopefully someone can verify the authencity of the provided references.

 

1. 日本刀装具図鑑, I cannot find a book by this name. I believe it is a mashup of real books, like most in the list.

2. 刀剣の美術館, I cannot find a book by this name. I think names of the books by Tokyo National Museum are always more specific.

3. 刀剣装具の世界, I cannot find a book by this name, I think it might be created from 刀装具の世界 (an exhibition of Watanabe Museum of Art): https://watart.jp/exhibition/刀装具の世界～技巧・造形美と鳥取藩の鐔師たち/

4. 日本刀装具大鑑, I cannot find a book by this name. I think it is creation from Nihontō Taikan 日本刀大鑑

5. 刀剣装飾の美術史, I cannot find a book by this name.

6. 日本刀装具の美, I believe this is false creation of 刀装具の美 Tosogu no Bi

7. 日本刀装飾大鑑, It created the same name as in 4. but with incorrect kanji (刀装飾), someone more proficient in language can add insight on this

8. 刀剣装飾大鑑, I cannot find a book by this name.

9. 刀剣の美術, I believe this is miscreation of NBTHK monthly magazine 刀剣美術 Tōken Bijutsu

 

I think ChatGPT just added NBTHK, Tokyo National Museum etc. as authors to make the information sound real.

@GRC Can you find a single Japanese book reference in real life book that ChatGPT gave to you?

[GRC]

Here's my detailed response 

 

Those are fair points to consider

 

I certainly do agree that being able to identify what is cast is more important to the collector than when it was cast.

 

[GRC]

My response above was to Steve's post, not to Jussi 

 

@Jussi Ekholm, I did a few quick searches but stopped after the first three. I was getting inconsistent results, and just suspected something might be missing from the titles provided.

But now that you've done that extensive searching (thanks!), it's far more likely to have been a construct by the AI that was "forcing" a "positive response" to the prompt I gave it to "provide references".

 

That's a dangerous thing to have about, without providing a full disclaimer that the program will do that.

 

Thanks again, to everyone who did some searching. 

 

It was a good "check" of the AI's potential for that type of use, and it certainly seems to have failed badly in providing genuine references.

 

[Larason2]

I think one of the problems is that there have been some contributors that have been saying a presented tsuba is cast without evidence, (or evidence that in my opinion has been convincingly challenged). I also suspect that for some, there may be a financial stake in their credibility or the credibility of those they learned those assessments from. As has been pointed out, in the field of nihonto, false assessment has been used by unethical actors in the past for financial gain. In my opinion, this makes this very difficult to resolve. There is a tendency online to infinitely prolong debate rather than to allow yourself to appear wrong or admit you may be in error, particularly if there is a financial stake.

 

I think there is also the desire by many on this forum to be able to say convincingly whether a presented tsuba is cast or not. I don't think there is usually enough actual evidence to make this call, though sometimes there is. The trouble is also we don't necessarily know if this discussion is driven by curiosity alone, or by hidden risk of financial gain or loss. 

 

So for me, it's enough that a piece isn't called as cast when there's no evidence, or only controversial evidence. I think the Edo portion of it is an attempt by some to add validity to a call that something is cast. If it can be shown that tsuba were cast in the edo period in Japan, particularly in large numbers, then this means the pre-test probability of a cast piece is much higher.

[Brian]

Fantastic responses Steve, really enjoy your approach.
One thing I do often notice is the fact that many novices who collect Japanese items have this romantic notion that an item may have been carried into battle by a...Samurai! Ooh!.....wow...awe...shock...it must have been seen some battle. Taken some heads. I trust that this isn't something felt by our members, but many guys out there do have that dream.
So when they buy a tsuba and find out it's cast, the horror that it may not have been made at a time when the samurai existed is just too much to bear. The whole idea that cast tsuba are later means that they aren't a Samurai item, and that the whole romantic hope is flawed.
Again, not saying this is the reasoning among our members, but out there in collecting land, anything that removes an item further away from the Samurai is seen as a huge negative. Swords couldn't have been owned by mere merchants. Fittings couldn't have been made for Western export. I fear much of the reasoning behind trying to date these tsuba as earlier is to place them in a time that is far more romantic when it comes to collecting.

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I do not have access to ChatGPT but I would strongly advice against using it in do research like this. On all cases where I have seen it to be used regarding nihonto, it is just giving misinformation that it is creating out of thin air, usually misinformation that is fitting exactly to the question that the person asking the question wants to hear, creating a false narrative.

 

As for the reference books provided by ChatGPT, I believe for the Japanese reference names, it is also creating them, making them appear as looking like genuine references. I am not a fittings guy and I have limited resources on them but hopefully someone can verify the authencity of the provided references.

 

1. 日本刀装具図鑑, I cannot find a book by this name. I believe it is a mashup of real books, like most in the list.

2. 刀剣の美術館, I cannot find a book by this name. I think names of the books by Tokyo National Museum are always more specific.

3. 刀剣装具の世界, I cannot find a book by this name, I think it might be created from 刀装具の世界 (an exhibition of Watanabe Museum of Art): https://watart.jp/exhibition/刀装具の世界～技巧・造形美と鳥取藩の鐔師たち/

4. 日本刀装具大鑑, I cannot find a book by this name. I think it is creation from Nihontō Taikan 日本刀大鑑

5. 刀剣装飾の美術史, I cannot find a book by this name.

6. 日本刀装具の美, I believe this is false creation of 刀装具の美 Tosogu no Bi

7. 日本刀装飾大鑑, It created the same name as in 4. but with incorrect kanji (刀装飾), someone more proficient in language can add insight on this

8. 刀剣装飾大鑑, I cannot find a book by this name.

9. 刀剣の美術, I believe this is miscreation of NBTHK monthly magazine 刀剣美術 Tōken Bijutsu

 

I think ChatGPT just added NBTHK, Tokyo National Museum etc. as authors to make the information sound real.

@GRC Can you find a single Japanese book reference in real life book that ChatGPT gave to you?

 

 

I have actually tried ChatGPT with Juyo Zufu for which I have translations and sometimes the results are so far off, it is not even funny. For  standard, non-technical subject matters where English resource material is prolific, it does reasonably well. For arcane subjects such as nihonto, in less intuitive languages such as Japanese and Chinese (where different alphabets and characters have different meanings subject to context or time-period usage), then caveat emptor. Be very careful as it mixes myth with fact, pulp fiction with history and blends things up. I made repeated attempts to teach it about Osafune, and within the same discussion thread, it did seem to pick it up somewhat. However, in a new dialogue, the knowledge was gone. It is a very advanced semantic model but that is what it is for now. 

[Dan tsuba]

 

 

Hello again Steve Waszak,

 

I noticed that you stated in one of your previous posts that-

 

“Well, if investigative efforts into the literature could result in a reliable, confirmed, original/primary source, then sure, that would be good to find, even for this topic, I guess.  But if initial efforts show that there aren't any such sources, and that all the literature in question that mentions cast iron tsuba production and its origins itself begins with publication dates in the 20th century, then this effort becomes futile.”

 

If my recollection is correct (who knows I am getting old!) there are a couple of references to cast iron tsuba that were published in the late 19^th century (and very early 20^th century) that are stated somewhere in the 11 pages of this thread!

 

I believe that they are not comprehensive or “long winded” references, but they were written in the late 19^th century (and very early 20th century)..

 

Anyway, I just did a quick search of this thread and found references stated on p 2,3,5,6,7,and 9.  I am certain that you are already familiar with several of the references stated.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Baba Yaga]

Fires in Edo (江戸), the former name of Tokyo, during the Edo period (1600−1868) of Japan were so frequent that the city of Edo was characterized as the saying "Fires and quarrels are the flowers of Edo"[note 1] goes.[1] Even in the modern days, the old Edo was still remembered as the "City of Fires" (火災都市).[2]

 

WW2 Fires in Japan???

 

Information was lost, a lot of information was lost. Writing pages of mental gymnastics about people wasting time, is in itself a waste of time. Maybe I should write a book about all the people who told me I was wasting time. It didn't work out so well for them

 

Please keep researching and learning 

[GRC]

9 hours ago, Larason2 said:

The trouble is also we don't necessarily know if this discussion is driven by curiosity alone, or by hidden risk of financial gain or loss. 

 

7 hours ago, Brian said:

I fear much of the reasoning behind trying to date these tsuba as earlier is to place them in a time that is far more romantic when it comes to collecting.

 

Um, I would suggest that you guys are way off base in entertaining fears such as those.

 

OK, maybe a dealer would entertain such notions, but it shouldn't make a difference to the people looking to buy tsuba.

And, maybe someone who is collecting cast tsuba might benefit psychologically from that romantic attachment... but I would argue that it's only relevant to that individual.

 

The prices of cast tsuba aren't suddenly going to increase in value simply because they were made earlier. 

I think you guys are maybe "jumping off a cliff" with an "extreme" extension of that idea.

When they were made shouldn't make any significant  real-world difference in value

[GRC]

 @Brian, if the romantic "owned by samurai, used in battle" is the main driving force for people collecting tsuba, then they should avoid almost every Edo period tsuba, regardless of whether they were cast or not!

 

A significant number of the "high end" tsuba made in the late Edo period wouldn't have been worn by "samurai" anyway, and were far more likely to have been purchased by some well-to-do merchant who just wanted to flaunt their elevated financial status. My understanding of the times, is that many merchants were more affluent than the majority of samurai in those years.

 

This is why a great number of iron-tsuba collectors almost immediately dismiss anything that was produced during the more opulent, and peaceful Edo period, when there was no military combat at all.

 

I think that cast-iron tsuba adds an extra layer of contempt for collectors who already hold that view.

I would suggest this was strongly evident in Steve's posts where the made the argument that all our time "would be better spent pursuing other areas of research".   

 

Mid to late Edo samurai were really just "samurai in name only" (should we call them "SNO"? )...

 

They were many generations, and almost 200 years removed from their ancestors who actually saw battle.

I think it would be difficult to make the case that these mid to late Edo samurai were a "warrior-class" at all.

 

If I recall correctly, Sesko wrote that most had taken on a more bureaucratic role or were invested in non-military pursuits like literature, poetry, and painting.

I assume many (most?) would still have trained in martial arts, but there were no battles, no wars, and certainly none of the romanticized "samurai" that show up in movies.

[GRC]

Just as a side observation... this topic definitely generates some interesting discussion and brings out a lot of different viewpoints  

[OceanoNox]

We are getting off topic here, but about primary sources, there is an example of a research group that tried to find the truth about Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu, the man said to have invented iai techniques. They basically tried to find densho and documents going back to the 16th century. It seems a lot of the work was also based on personal connections, knowing who was collecting documents, and knowing the genealogy to try to get papers that might have been passed down the generations. So this is a possible work to do, get info about where the objects were made, and dig, dig dig in local archives. Again, knowing the right people, and being able to decipher the documents...

 

Aaand to get really off topic, there is a "samurai picture journal" written during the Bakumatsu. The main guy Sekijo was under house arrest, but even then, as seen with his friends, they had very little to do, and seem to be mostly visiting one another and drinking/eating and preparing for festivals. https://kmj.flet.keio.ac.jp/exhibition/2013/04.html#know

[Steve Waszak]

2 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

Writing pages of mental gymnastics about people wasting time, is in itself a waste of time. Maybe I should write a book about all the people who told me I was wasting time. It didn't work out so well for them

You're contradicting yourself here.  Surely you see this.  And, I would just say that if a few people, via my time-wasting efforts, recognize that their researching pursuits might have better goals -- concerning aspects of Japanese art and culture that possess higher intrinsic value -- then that time will not actually have been wasted (what a concept!).  For example, I think Glen (GRC)  absolutely stands out in the Tosogu forum as a thinker and researcher, who shows sustained focus, rigor, discipline, and doggedness in his efforts, as well as sharp analytical skills.  Very impressive.  I would love to see him target topics and questions with higher intrinsic value than can possibly be found in those concerning cast iron tsuba.  If that were to happen, then my time would not have been wasted.  I realize that even responding to your comment is likely a massive waste of my time, but (shrug), I'm in a time-wasting mood.  

[rematron]

Live and let live.  Nobody is going to have a sudden revelation that they've been wasting their time when they read somebody's opinion on social media that they're wasting their time.  If someone wants to research something that they're interested in, let them.  Why do students repeat scientific experiments that have been done before?  They want to do it for themselves to engage their thought process.  The definition of a "waste of time" is highly subjective.

 

From reading all these threads that pertain to cast tsuba, I believe the most valid reason for the push-back by members is to maintain history that is the most widely accepted and to keep a rein on misinformation from spreading.  That's a valid stance.  And, if new people take the time to read these threads, they will see both sides of the argument for themselves and probably be at least cautious if and when they decide to purchase a tsuba.

 

And here's a thought.  IMO, a certifiable Edo-period cast tsuba would not be valueless.  It would be very valuable to a lot of collectors and historians just because of how rare it would be and the historical implications that it would carry.   I'm not saying they exist.  I don't know if they do or not.  Neither side of the argument can definitively say one way or the other.  

 

But, saying something to the effect of "just stop it already..." isn't going to work.  If these chains are proof of anything, it's that the back and forth will continue into infinity.

[Steve Waszak]

Jeremy,

 

You're wrong.  On several counts.  We'll start at the top with this one:

 

"Nobody is going to have a sudden revelation that they've been wasting their time when they read somebody's opinion on social media that they're wasting their time."

 

No one -- ever -- has been exposed to an idea or argument, whether on social media or elsewhere, and due to that exposure, considered their own priorities, values, choices, and behavior, and from that consideration, recognized that the idea/argument they'd seen was right, or at least useful?  Nobody?  What an asinine statement.  

 

As far as "letting" people pursue what interests them goes, sure.  Of course.  I never said or suggested people shouldn't be allowed to pursue a particular line of inquiry.  This isn't about "letting" people do what they want; it's about WHY they want to do it.  

 

"The definition of a 'waste of time' is highly subjective."  Yup.  It is.  If you want to spend 10,000 hours mastering the art of juggling a dozen snapping turtles, and in your subjective viewpoint, this is a highly valuable pursuit worthy of spending so many hours on, by all means, exercise your freedom to chase such a dream.   The point is not, and never has been, that what constitutes a waste of time is objectively decidable; it is that, because it is not objectively decidable, it must be argued for, or, of course, ignored altogether.  I have already said why I think my position is worth arguing for, so I won't repeat it here.  

 

You say at the end of your second paragraph that "And, if new people take the time to read these threads, they will see both sides of the argument for themselves and probably be at least cautious if and when they decide to purchase a tsuba."  Your comment here only reinforces my point that knowing when cast iron tsuba were first made is irrelevant.  The value in the general topic of cast iron tsuba is limited to knowing how to identify them in order to avoid them.  

 

You then go on to say, "IMO, a certifiable Edo-period cast tsuba would not be valueless.  It would be very valuable to a lot of collectors and historians just because of how rare it would be and the historical implications that it would carry."

 

Rarity, by itself, is a highly dubious value.  Rarity attached to an object with intrinsic value is another matter.  But in this latter case, the overwhelmingly primary value is the object's intrinsic worthiness, not its rarity.  Genuine Shodai and Nidai Nobuiye tsuba are not particularly rare.  However, they have off-the charts intrinsic value.  On the other hand, a certifiably authenticated mid-Edo tsuba made of tanuki feces would be an extraordinarily rare find, a true treasure!  But of course, this is moot, since no such certifiably authenticated tsuba exists.  We could only hope to stumble upon such an exciting unicorn.  Rarity, attached to an object with zero intrinsic value, becomes meaningless.  Cast iron tsuba possess zero intrinsic value.  Do they possess extrinsic value?  Well, the "historical implications" you refer to could count as extrinsic value, though I cannot see how the degree of this value would be anything but very low. If there are meaningful "historical implications," what, precisely, would these be, and exactly what value would they have?   Can you identify these for us?  

 

And finally, you return to your start point:  "But, saying something to the effect of "just stop it already..." isn't going to work.  If these chains are proof of anything, it's that the back and forth will continue into infinity.

 

What you mean is, "saying something to the effect of 'just stop it already...' isn't going to work" FOR YOU.  You know, subjectively speaking.  But you have no idea if it may not work for others.  You are projecting your own subjective response onto others, imagining that "nobody is going to have a sudden revelation."  Your post smacks of a knee-jerk response borne out of emotion-based indignation, rather than being anything carefully considered.  

 

And if "the back and forth will continue into infinity," about a topic (when cast iron tsuba first were made) whose intrinsic value is so low, then "these chains are proof," too, of the need to have a crowbar jammed into these uselessly ever-turning wheels.  

 

The expression, "There's no there, there" has seldom been more applicable to a topic in this Tosogu forum.

[Dan tsuba]

So, off topic here.

 

My personal opinion is that some recent posts to this thread, in response to other posts, are not very nice.

 

I have learned from my past experiences on this forum a saying that goes something like this (which was found on the internet)-

 

“Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how smooth or strategic your moves are, the pigeon is just going to knock down all the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it won”.

 

So, my friends, let’s just ignore some of these "not so nice" recent posts and move on and forward!

 

With respect,

Dan

[rematron]

Steve,

 

I understand you and the opinions that you have stated.  You have expanded on my thoughts in some instances that I respect and, in my opinion, have taken my remarks a little too literally in other regards which is fine. 

 

"Nobody" - sure, I'll give you that.  "Nobody" is an exaggeration.  Just like if I were to say, "Nobody uses flip-phones anymore." I'm sure you would call that an asinine statement as well.

 

...it's about WHY they want to do it - They are curious.  It's as simple as that.

 

When cast iron tsuba were first made IS relevant.  The point that I failed to make was that the concerns of NMB of having misinformation be contained is not in jeopardy via these threads.  

 

I would love to have a Tanuki feces tsuba made in the Edo period.

 

The historical implications would be that these arguments would come to an end.  Haha.  In all seriousness, an authentic Edo period cast tsuba would literally change history as perceived by a lot of Nihonto enthusiasts.  

 

Yes, you're right.  It isn't going to work for ME.  And it is my opinion that it isn't going to work for A LOT of people.  I "project" onto you that you knew what I meant. 

 

Anybody have a crowbar for Steve?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve Waszak]

You know, Dan, I agree with you.  I know that, at times, my own tone can come across harsher and more aggressive than I intend.  I think this is partly due to the nature of electronic communication, whereby, for some reason, tones can be seen as colder than they were meant (Isn't this why emojis were invented?).  In some cases, though, if the content of a post (its actual ideas and academic arguments) incites a clearly dismissive response, especially if that response does not seem to have been borne out of careful reflection and consideration), I myself can react too aggressively.  So, I apologize for that.  

 

However, I stand by my original post here, and the ideas/arguments it presents.  

 

Thanks for the post, Dan.

 

[rematron]

6 minutes ago, Steve Waszak said:

In some cases, though, if the content of a post (its actual ideas and academic arguments) incites a clearly dismissive response, especially if that response does not seem to have been borne out of careful reflection and consideration), I myself can react too aggressively.  So, I apologize for that.  

I'm sorry.  How am I clearly being dismissive?  I'm stating my opinion and it may not be up to scholarly standards, but I do think it is valid.  I'm definitely not being aggressive and don't feel like I deserve an aggressive response.  Just explaining how I see it like people do...

[OceanoNox]

12 hours ago, Steve Waszak said:

their researching pursuits might have better goals

In this case, I think it might be beneficial to do it "once and for all" (so for about 50 years in terms of science), so that other people do not "waste" their time on it.

By the way, @Steve Waszak, I am still not sure what is the intrinsic value of tsuba over cast ones. Is it craftsmanship? Cost of production?

 

[Brian]

Steve,
Don't give up man. I love your way of debating. And it's not rude. There's a reason all the oooold collectors with experience are not joining this debate. Pointless, but at least you are trying. Can you imagine Jim Gilbert or Bob Hughes joining this debate?

[Dan tsuba]

Hello my friend Brian,

 

My thought and opinion is that maybe the reason the “oooold” collectors are not joining in the discussion is because maybe they don’t want to subject themselves to possible ridicule from other members?

 

Better to stay in the “safe zone” of a known area than to “venture out” into the unknown and “unsafe” zone of the question of cast iron tsuba possibly being made in the Edo period.

 

Although it is my opinion that this thread has possibly changed the thinking of several members on that subject.

 

Maybe before when they thought that cast iron tsuba could not and were not made during the Edo period, maybe now they think that it could be a possibility?

 

With respect,

Dan

[Baba Yaga]

22 hours ago, Steve Waszak said:

You're contradicting yourself here.  Surely you see this.  And, I would just say that if a few people, via my time-wasting efforts, recognize that their researching pursuits might have better goals -- concerning aspects of Japanese art and culture that possess higher intrinsic value -- then that time will not actually have been wasted (what a concept!).  For example, I think Glen (GRC)  absolutely stands out in the Tosogu forum as a thinker and researcher, who shows sustained focus, rigor, discipline, and doggedness in his efforts, as well as sharp analytical skills.  Very impressive.  I would love to see him target topics and questions with higher intrinsic value than can possibly be found in those concerning cast iron tsuba.  If that were to happen, then my time would not have been wasted.  I realize that even responding to your comment is likely a massive waste of my time, but (shrug), I'm in a time-wasting mood.  

 

I'm not on anyone's side, but the side of free thought. I'm really not a Tsuba collector but, enjoyed the information brought about by both sides of this discussion. Someplace in-between could be good answers. I said could, not is. When a person brings the super decoder ring into the conversation they lose me. Notice I use the word "I", 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I just thought of something (I know many of you are saying “Oh no!  Not again!”.  Ha, ha, ha, etc!) 

 

I have a question for my friend Brian,

 

You and others have taken a “firm and immovable” stance on the subject of cast iron tsuba not being produced during the Edo period of Japanese history.  As you stated in one of your recent posts on this thread “There's a reason all the oooold collectors with experience are not joining this debate. Pointless,…”.

 

It is my conclusion from the results on this thread that the “house of cards” that you and others have so diligently built concerning the negative (no way) possibility of cast iron tsuba being produced in the Edo period will (in time) come tumbling down (with a crash!).  I am certain of this and have no doubt.  Maybe it won’t happen in my lifetime, but it will definitely happen.

 

And remember, my friend, you started this debate!  I refer you to page one of this thread that is quoted below-

 

Brian

Administrators

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Location:South Africa

Name: Brian

Posted January 24, 2022

 

“Yes...but what about cast iron tsuba? :)”

 

 

So, I and others have (over time) responded to your question (with many posts that have included stated references).  Yet it seems to me that you (and others) are vehemently against the idea of cast iron tsuba being produced in the Edo period.  Since you brought up this line of inquiry on this thread, why are you (and others) so totally against the idea that you initally started and brought up on this thread?

 

Hey, just a thought!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Steve Waszak]

Dan,

 

You ask Brian why he (and others) are so totally against the idea (if, in fact, that is accurate to say) that cast iron tsuba were made as a common practice in the Edo Period.  I can't speak for him, but I suspect it may have something to do with the first point I made in my initial post:  you rely heavily on a deductive approach instead of an inductive one, and appear to be guilty of wanting it to be true that cast iron tsuba were regularly made in the Edo Period.  Wanting a particular outcome to be true prior to sufficient evidence being produced for that outcome is usually a fatal flaw in research methods and practices.  It is tightly associated with the begging-the-question logical fallacy.  Your words are pretty damning evidence of this deductive/begging-the-question approach (wherein you assume the very premise you are arguing for is true, rather than taking the much superior approach of not knowing IF it is true, and then using a rigorous inductive approach to see if it is): 

4 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

It is my conclusion from the results on this thread that the “house of cards” that you and others have so diligently built concerning the negative (no way) possibility of cast iron tsuba being produced in the Edo period will (in time) come tumbling down (with a crash!).  I am certain of this and have no doubt.  Maybe it won’t happen in my lifetime, but it will definitely happen.

 

You don't seem to realize how logically problematic your words here are.  You say you are "certain of this and have no doubt," and that "...it will definitely happen."  And you say this based on "the results on this thread."  But the results on this thread have not provided much if any concrete, incontrovertible proof (as opposed to hearsay and (often way- after-the fact/ narratives) that cast iron tsuba were regularly produced during the Edo Period.  This more than suggests how much you want this idea to be true.  Why is it that you so very much want, even need this to be true?  And what, exactly, would it mean if it were true?  And if it weren't?  What is the deeper significance of the truth of one outcome versus the other?  

 

In any event, I suspect that no small part of the resistance some may have to your viewpoint has to do with your approach to it.  

[Brian]

What Steve said.
Also, consider the facts. You can find books and research in Japan on just about every koshirae aspect. There are heaps of books focussing just on Akasaka school...Goto school..Bushu...Echizen...books just on kozuka, books on menuki. Books about kinko works. There are exhibitions on all of these subjects. Museum displays. Collectors focussed on just about every school out there.
So WHERE are these books and studies and displays and collectors of Edo period cast tsuba? Where are they? There is a collector and/or student for every aspect of Japanese art. So are you saing this vast industry existed, and because they were not seen as great items, they were just ignored for hundreds of years and by tens of thousands of scholars?
Until you came along, and decided that you need a legacy. You need to unlock something that thousands of Japanese sword collectors somehow missed? Where are the books or notes that were written by these groups of casters doing tsuba? Where are the university studies on them? They exist for all other schools of fittings makers? Even the poor ones. Even Nagoya-mono have books and studies. Even cheap iron battle tsuba have books on them. But everyone ignored these cast tsuba because they just didn't like them?
I have no doubt some tsuba were cast. Of course there will always be people who experiment with new ideas, new shapes, new methods. The same way some swordsmiths made Western style swords, or experimented with steels. The same way some tsuba makers made weird shapes just because they could. A handful of "messing around" ideas does not a new category make.
You decided the outcome, then went looking for the proof. Exactly as Steve said.
We have the same with people rebelling against gimei. People want to leave a legacy maybe? Want to be pioneers? I dunno. But in a 100 year old tradition, there is a lot of new info that can be discovered. In a 1000 year old one...not so much.
Most of the references that have been found so far are easily explained by a handful of hobbyist artisans maybe playing with something. Most of it is explained by the writers simply not having enough knowledge of what is wrought iron, what cast means exactly etc.
But hey...feel free to carry on. As has been mentioned, people enjoy hearing both sides and I have no problem with the debate itself. It is indeed educational in many ways, and people are free to make up their own minds. So by all means, carry on and we are all interested in the outcome.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello All,

 

Thank you, Steve and Brian, for your great posts in response to mine.  I understand what you both are saying and appreciate it. 

 

The fact that you both state something along the lines that “I want it to be true” is an insight for me! 

 

I actually find this a fun and exciting area to research and study.  It has led me into other interesting areas of research, and I have learned much about Japanese culture and technology during the Edo period.

 

But like a “bulldog with a piece of leather in his teeth”, I am not going to let this go.  It is my time to spend and do with as I wish!

 

Although there is one thing Brian stated that I take offense with.  He stated, “Until you came along, and decided that you need a legacy.”  Now, I consider that totally out of place and untrue. 

 

Brian, in my life I have done more than most but not as much as some.  To think and state that I need this forum to create a “legacy” is absurd. 

 

Unlike some on this forum, tsuba (and other Japanese antiques) are not my life!  This forum is just a minor diversion for me!  But like I stated above, it is fun (until someone comes along and tries to “belittle” me!).

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[Brian]

Dan,
That stems from posts like the one you did about Kogai. Where something already well known and researched suddenly became the victim of an obscure theory about how and why they were used. Suddenly the members were expected to open the minds to a theory that soft metal hair arrangers were actually used on the battlefield and for various other uses. Why keep taking accepted knowledge and try and come up with new theories with little no basis? That does look like someone who wants to leave a legacy of something new. So yeah, I accept that's not what it is. But if you keep throwing out random theories in the hope that something sticks, people ARE going to get that impression.
This field of study doesn't work that way. Pertly because as Westerners we are relatively new to this and have to go along with centuries before us, and partly because the Japanese way is of student/master and not to make waves. Right or wrong, this is how it works and how best to approach it.
 

[Spartancrest]

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