Kabuto mon and period question

[LuckyLuudje]

Hello all,

 

This is my first post here and I hope it is in the right section,  so please be gentle with me.

 

I am collecting WW2 medals and ancient coins for 30 years but the last few years I bought some Japanese antiques, just because I like old Japanese items.

I also have a katana, yari, kake, musha ningyo and a wakizashi.

I don't want to start a new collection so I only want to collect one of each.

 

My interest is mainly the history behind it not really rare makers  or variants.

 

Here I post my Kabuto, 

 

The seller said that the family he got it from stated that it has been worn during the fall of Odaware Castle.

So if this is true ,that would mean that it must have been made before 1590. 

I searched online for the "mon" and found nothing and got lost, so I would appreciate your help.

 

My question is about the "mon" and the period of making. Any other comments are also appreciated.

 

Best Regards, Lucky

 

[LuckyLuudje]

[LuckyLuudje]

[LuckyLuudje]

[LuckyLuudje]

[LuckyLuudje]

And here is the last picture

 

[YOJIMBO]

MON is irrelevant, you can put whatever you want there.

But the "story" sells  

[Shogun8]

Hi Lucky,

 

Welcome to the wonderful rabbit hole that we call armour collecting!

 

Nice kabuto! It seems that the ukebari (the cloth liner) is detached near the front of the kabuto. If so, are you able to peel it back and take a picture of the interior construction? That would help with an approximate dating of your kabuto.

 

I will leave it to other members like Uwe or Piers to comment on the mon.

 

John

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks guys!

 

So true that many sellers like to make a story to bump the value.

So I am trying to find out if I find find more information if it could be true, but I only found out that this is a complete different world that that I am used to. 

I made a picture of the inside and also a picture of the complete Yoroi, but it is dark in the Hallway and I dont want to move it or mess with it too much.

 

I looked under it around with a flashlight and my glasses but didn't see anything other that could give a clue.

[LuckyLuudje]

The Yoroi

[SteveM]

The mon is called maru ni de hitotsu hiki  (丸に出一つ引き）which, as you can imagine, means "one line protruding from circle".

 

I have no information regarding who may have used this mon. Here is a link for your further research.

https://irohakamon.com/kamon/hikiryou/marunidehitotsuhiki.html

 

Regarding the date, the writing in your second picture is a date. It may not be the date of the manufacture of th helmet, but it will be a data point. The first part is the era name, but it is covered by the mon.

The part we can read says "June 1st".

 

The era name might be 

 

Shōhō 正保 (1645-1648).

Could also be Shōchō 正長 (1428-1429) but I think that's unlikely.

[uwe]

Hello and welcome Lucky!

 

I love the first sentence of Johns post...!!!

 

Nice helmet and a nice gusoku over and above that! Yes, the kabuto might have some age, but more on that later.

The mon on the fukigaeshi could be described as  "Maru ni de hitotsu biki" ("丸に出一つ引き", or literally, protruding bar in a ring ) I guess!?

I found only a few references, "鮒子田" (Fushita), "田畑" (Tabata) and "大山" (Oyama). Unfortunately, thats only half of the truth. On the one hand we have no chronological assignment, on the other hand we still have these two choji on the maedate. Furthermore and unfortunately, Simon is not totally wrong.....there is a possibillity, that these are later additions. So a lot of study and work left to do...

 

Note: Some of the names could have several readings!
 

[LuckyLuudje]

Also thanks for the help, that is already more than I could find.

 

I did find some Japanese characters on other parts of the Yoroi that could help to complete the covered area

[LuckyLuudje]

[uwe]

45 minutes ago, SteveM said:

The mon is called maru ni de hitotsu hiki  (丸に出一つ引き）which, as you can imagine, means "one line protruding from circle".

 

I have no information regarding who may have used this mon. Here is a link for your further research.

https://irohakamon.com/kamon/hikiryou/marunidehitotsuhiki.html

 

Regarding the date, the writing in your second picture is a date. It may not be the date of the manufacture of th helmet, but it will be a data point. The first part is the era name, but it is covered by the mon.

The part we can read says "June 1st".

 

The era name might be 

 

Shōhō 正保 (1645-1648).

Could also be Shōchō 正長 (1428-1429) but I think that's unlikely.

 

Hi Seve,

 

the leather is called "Shôhei gawa" and the date printed on it, is the date of its first introduction in 1352, if I remember well.

Hence no connection to the piece..

[uwe]

Ok,

to be exact: "正平六年六月一日" (1351)
 

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks Uwe,

 

I am only getting more and more confused by the Japanese terminology and the wonderful rabbit hole that we call armour collecting!   

 

And trying to find out some more with google translation.

In the box I also found an old catalogue from a Japanese museum where it had been displayed. Maybe it helps

 

 

 

 

 

[Shogun8]

Indeed, a very nice gusoku and even better that it's published - congrats!

 

Can you post a picture of the catalogue cover?

[LuckyLuudje]

The Catalogue was a surprise.

 

After I bought the Yoroi, I was informed that it was displayed many times before near Osaka till about 25 years ago.

So I was surpised when I got my hands on this catalogue to find out that this could be true.

 

I also have a few cards around somewhere  where the name and information is displayed what I think they displayed next to the Yoroi .

I forgot the name is  but am sure it is not a match with the 3 names that Uwe mentioned. I will see if I can find them next weekend.

I do remember that the card mentioned the EDO period. If so, the part the  person would have been there during the last Seige of Osaka  can not be true.

 

I have no idea whet the Catalogue says, but here is a picture of the front and back

[LuckyLuudje]

Back

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am not an armor guy but I believe in the brackets after the description of the armor it says (大和高田 吉川家伝来) Yamato Takada, Kikkawa family denrai. So it would have been owned historically by Kikkawa family. Here is link to wikipedia entry for Kikkawa clan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkawa_clan

 

I think the description of your armor would be - 紺糸胸取五枚胴具足

 

I believe the exhibition was - つわものの美 大和の甲冑武具展 - Exhibtion of Yamato Armor

 

 

[uwe]

The book is “大和の甲冑武具展” (Yamato no katchu bugu ten). It’s was an exhibition of Yamato arms and armor, etc.

Probably around 1994…

[YOJIMBO]

LuckyLuudje

can I insert the original (auction) link? there is info on everything

[LuckyLuudje]

Of course you can. Maybe it helps. I lost the link.

I bought the Yoroi when I was there and. I liked it and made an offer, there was no story behind it at that time.

 

 

I found out later after reasearching the name on the card he had put it up for auction on catawiki for a rediculous high price. The name was something like ......kawa from the Hojo clan.

This made me curious of what I actually bought and try to find more information.

 

 

 

 

 

[uwe]

Jussi has the description of the armor right!

It reads “Kon ito muna tori go mai dō gusoku”. That means “Dark blue laced five piece cuirass armor with laced top section”.

[YOJIMBO]

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k500943972

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks, that is interesting! and didn't see that link.

Don't onderstand why the seller didn't give me this information!

Probably  because my offer didn't give him any profit.

[Shogun8]

Looks like you got a great deal!

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks for all your help, Looks like I already found more history behind the armour than expected.

Next weekend when I have time again I need to try to get some order in all the information you all gave, so I can make a document for the future that it doesn't get lost after me.

 

I am confused at all the names and weird translation. I just found out that the names are the other way around in Japan: "Yamato Takada, Kikkawa family denrai", does this mean it has been made in order for  Yamato Takada of the Kikkawa clan?

And the name changed into Yamato Joshigawa or do I misunderstand this?

 

The date of manufactoring in the auction says Senguko period, it is a huge timeframe, could the Gusoko (I just learned what that means) tell us more specific about the date?

And it looks to me that after the defeat in 1590, this Gusuko  retired.

 

 

 

 

[Iekatsu]

The Hachi (helmet bowl) looks like it might have some age, but we would need some more pictures of the interior and Mabizashi (visor) to be more certain. The rest of the armour looks to be Edo. Be careful with family attributions, published or not, these attributions are often not particularly credible.