An RS gunto, mumei … for George T

[paulatim]

Further to your comment, George, on your “celluloid same” thread, I have made a new post to show my new (and first) “RS” shin-gunto.

Today I closely examined the nagako under strong magnification. I wasn’t expecting find anything other than the painted characters which showed on the former owner’s pics, so I was delighted to discover a “Gifu-in-sakura” stamp! (thank you Bruce P, for your excellent article).

Whilst the blade may not be particularly interesting to many, I’m very happy to have this well-preserved example.  For me these RS represent much more than what one sees at face-value :-)

I’ve attached a number of pics.

Regards to all.

Paul

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

I used to have one of these Mumei RS when I started collecting Gunto years ago, but I didn't take any photos of the tang.

[DTM72]

So now we have @paulatim with a mumei RS, @BANGBANGSAN that had an mumei RS. Now we can add mine to the short list. Plus, mine has the celluloid same' as well. This one is getting very strange.

[george trotter]

Well, Paul, Trystan, Dan...I've been 'into' WWII gunto full-on for 20 years and I have never seen an unsigned/undated RS. As your mumei example is "Gi" stamped Dan, it is clear it went through the manufacturing procedure according to the rules.

So, interesting...nice example too.

Thanks...again, with Japanese swords, never say never and never say always!

Regards,

[BANGBANGSAN]

19 minutes ago, george trotter said:

Well, Paul, Trystan, Dan...I've been 'into' WWII gunto full-on for 20 years and I have never seen an unsigned/undated RS. As your mumei example is "Gi" stamped Dan, it is clear it went through the manufacturing procedure according to the rules.

So, interesting...nice example too.

Thanks...again, with Japanese swords, never say never and never say always!

Regards,

My friend had a better fitting RS with a mumei blade,  it seems arsenal made with the number. There is another one just like he's, and has a very close number.

 

[george trotter]

Interesting. Are both of these gendaito? - yours especially Trystan  looks RJT quality but with no mei - strange. Both in good quality fittings.

Those RS mounts are the type usually seen on swords made in the Osaka-Kyoto-Hyogo region of the RJT scheme...my type (see pic)  of "fat/plain/no hanger or chape type scabbards I have seen about 5-6 times....maybe intended for leather or canvas cover to have hanger loop? These made in same area).

I have seen two (see pic) from Kyoto by Kunihide and both were August 1944 and both had small numerals stamped on the nakago mune...mine has 98 and the other has 90. The numbers seem the same size, position and 'layout' as yours - except these do not have the number '1' (smith's tally number?) stamped beside them.

I know Bruce has a 'table' of tang numbers (I seem to remember) he has collected, so I think maybe this is one more mystery  for Bruce - Sherlock to look into? (I haven't got a pic of the tang mune number on mine Bruce but just say the word and I can do one for you).

Regards,

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, george trotter said:

Interesting. Are both of these gendaito? - yours especially Trystan  looks RJT quality but with no mei - strange. Both in good quality fittings.

 

 

Those 2 wood saya RS, one is my friend's, one is from the internet. Both are not likely Gendai but arsenal blade.
The one I use to have is in the metal saya cheaper version, not Gendai blade, but I forgot if there is any arsenal mark or numbers on the tang, it was a long time ago.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, george trotter said:

mall numerals stamped on the nakago mune...mine has 98 and the other has 90.

George,

I have both of those, plus more, but I got them from your survey and don't have photos on file.  If it's possible, I'd love to get the photos.

 

Here are the charted numbers I have, like this on the mune.  There seem to be a different stamping practice with the "1", "2", and "3" (there is a "6" on file too) combined with an arsenal stamp.  My suspicion is something like "inspector 1" "inspector 2" or "inspection 1 or 2" because several blades are found with the same number + arsenal stamp.  The larger numbers seem to have a different function, for they are nearly perfectly linear.  Only a couple on record out of sequence.  The Nagamitsu numbering seems to be in it's own class, tied to the smith.

 

@george trotter - a question about the Mitsunobu(Teruhide) mei from one of your articles, in a kaigunto - Sesko only lists one Showa era Mitsunobu but he's not "Teruhide".  And none of the older era Mitsunobu listed are Teruhide.  Is it possible this guy is the Showa Kaneda Mitsuhiro (金田光弘), listed by Sesko and the Teruhide has some other significance?  Sesko's was an RJT smith and that would align perfectly with the mune stamping practice we see with all the others.

 

1943, Feb	Kanetoshi (RJT) – Gifu	Na 30 on mune Star	Simpleman, NMB RS
1944, May	Masakuni (RJT) – Osada	78 on mune Star	Trotter Survey
1944, Jun	Masakuni (RJT) – Osaka	75 on mune Star	Volker62, NMB  RS
1944, Jul	Tomonari (RJT) – Kobe Hyogo	24 on mune Star
1944, Aug	Kunihide (RJT) – Kyoto	90 on mune	Trotter Survey
1944, Aug	Kunihide (RJT) – Kyoto	98 on mune	Trotter Survey
1944, Aug	Kunihide (RJT) – Kyoto	99 on mune	Trotter Survey
ND	Mitsunobu(Teruhide)	707 on mune	UniqueJapan.com; kaigunto
ND	Nagamitsu (RJT)	イ313 on mune	Ooitame; NMB, RS
ND	Nagamitsu (RJT)	695 on mune	Spidersrule123,NMB,RS
ND	Nagamitsu (RJT)	2005 on mune	Reeder, NMB
ND	Nagamitsu (RJT)	2205 on mune	Roromush, NMB, RS
ND	Nagamitsu (RJT)	1 saka 3490 on mune	Vajo; NMB
ND	Nagamitsu (RJT)	3973 on mune	IJASWORDS, NMB broken heart seppa
ND	Nagamitsu (RJT)	1阪3991 on mune	mauser99; NMB
ND	Toyo Knife Co; Shinbo “Bravely Brandish”	510 on mune; “S九” on mune	Paul Griff, NMB; “10” on fittings

 

 

 

 

 

 

[george trotter]

Bruce,

Camera playing up, this is the best I could do.

This is the Kunihide 98 you have on your list.

The Kunihide 90 is a pic I saw on a 1991 NBTHK  Hozon paper...but it is too vague to see let alone copy....sorry.

The Kunihide 99 is just another one I noticed on some US site....didn't copy...sorry.

The size, location, style was the same on all three though.

Hope this helps.

About the Mitsunobu/Teruhide...sorry, can't recall article now...any link?

[mecox]

Bruce and George, this guy ?  Ishido MITSUNOBU / TERUHIDE 光信/輝秀,   Naval Swords Japan #2, page 49, you both read it!!   No stamps, and not RJT.

[george trotter]

Great stuff Mal, thanks for your great articles.

It's all there Bruce...he used both names....I even had one years ago by Ishido Teruhide...but in those days 1970s, I don't think we even thought about tang numbers etc.

Gotta love NMB and its members...

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks for the added photo George.  And Mal, thanks for clearing that up.  I misunderstood my own annotation!  I thought I was reading a first name, but I put it in parenthesis because it was an alternate art name he used. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Linking the newest one to the discussion.  Not 100% conclusive that this one was in RS fittings.  I has a shirasaya tsuka an RS fuchi.  So, both pieces could have been added post-war.  But it is possible the fuchi was original. 

 

 

[DTM72]

Just found another rough shaped mumei nakago on a Type 3 RS on ebay.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284634787477?hash=item42458e2e95:g:qo4AAOSw7odh-XGL

 

@Bruce Pennington @george trotter

 

 

[vajo]

Dan that sword looks assembled together from parts and it is not Type3.

The ito maki looks made by an amateur

[DTM72]

7 hours ago, vajo said:

Dan that sword looks assembled together from parts and it is not Type3.

The ito maki looks made by an amateur

I noticed the poor quality of this as well, but wondered if this is truely one of the "last-ditch" pieces rushed into use. Possibly forged and assembled outside of Japan.

[george trotter]

Thanks for the link Dan. Gut feeling is ... ummm...nothing to get excited about!

Hard to tell much due to poor quality/small size of pics. Blade looks good-ish, tang too rusty/rough to tell much on age etc.

Scabbard and  tsuba definitely non-military, only hilt fuchi/kashira are RS....one hole in tang?, can't see any sign of a peg hole in the hilt...overall verdict...not RS. 

Might be a private sword 'militarised' for field use.

Regards,

 

[Bruce Pennington]

These are really puzzling to me.  The blade and kissaki look really good:

 

But the nakago are horrid.

 

I might lean toward Dan's @DTM72 idea, as this blade doesn't look Japanese, but rather off-mainland made.  With Nick Komiya's post in mind about mainland sword production being almost totally wiped out in the last year of the war and production being forced over to occupied territories.  If the blade were crap, I'd even lean toward total fakery, but it looks appropriately aged for WWII, so I'm 51% at a combination of George's and Corry's thoughts - civil tsuba/saya, late war tsuka, island-made blade.  In other words, a late-war, work with what you've got, sword.

[george trotter]

that is one H--l of a rough hammered tang!...hard to believe it has a reasonably good blade on the other end...

[DTM72]

8 hours ago, george trotter said:

that is one H--l of a rough hammered tang!...hard to believe it has a reasonably good blade on the other end...

I feel the same about my RS...it has hammer marks still on it! From the habaki to the kissaki it is beautiful. Single mekugi-ana as well.

 

Could it be that these were rough forged and rough shaped in occupied territory, then shippied to the mainland for final polish and fitting? The polish on mine is a good WWII type polish. Definitely not an amateur type polish.

[george trotter]

6 hours ago, DTM72 said:

 

Could it be that these were rough forged and rough shaped in occupied territory, then shippied to the mainland for final polish and fitting? The polish on mine is a good WWII type polish. Definitely not an amateur type polish.

That is a hard one Dan. I can only give you my opinion on this. Personally, based on a lifetime study of WWII swords, I really feel that the domestic Japan military showa sword industry did manage to struggle through and kept producing up until August 1945...yes the NCO sword patterns did get more 'economical' in their manufacture as the war progressed, but they seem to have carried on. In the case of Type 98 however, there was no real evidence of 'cutting corners' on parts quality etc and other than the intro of the RS 'optional choice" (still classed as a Type 98) in 1941 the Type 98 stayed generally common and good quality...the dates on the tangs should give evidence that that Type 98 and RS went through til Aug? 1945 (maybe members with 1945 tangs could comment and/or post? - or maybe already on Bruce's lists?).

 

While some other 2 or 3 posts (Trystan) show a mumei RS sword, what is shown here is not a RS...just the use of some RS hilt fittings .

Where/how/by whom yours blade was made is unknown...I don't 'feel' it was  overseas. Blade production in Japan was going OK to 1945 I think.

I say this as I have a  RS study book that gives the monthly RJT sword output of  a RJT smith I have between 14/8/1944 - 26/2/1945 (about 10/month, as per the RJT rules). Another comment has smiths still doing their payment account paperwork up to 8/1945...so the RJT scheme lasted to the very end of the war it seems. So, I think it wise to assume that the Japanese WWII sword industry overall operated  OK in Japan from 1930s-1945.

 

Of course some 'oddities' came in from occupied areas (hobby swords as in Fuller & Gregory?) and the well-known Manchurian industrial setup...but I don't see any evidence for a 'back-up' industry overseas. I can't explain the one you ask about here, but I think it was made local in Japan. Just a point of interest...it is only in the last 6 months that I have seen evidence on NMB of unsigned, rough tang, 1 hole tangs on RS swords...after 50+ years!...I don't think 2 or 3 swords of this type after 50 odd years is evidence of an overseas back-up system....just don't know what it is evidence of...maybe just the 'never say never/ never say always' of Nihonto collecting..

 

Not much help I know, but don't forget "Okum's Razor" (the simplest answer is usually the right one)... in this case, simply an 'odd' WWII sword in 'cobbled together mix' of fittings...nothing more?

Regards,

[BANGBANGSAN]

One more Mumei RS with Type 98 scabbard, looks like an older blade remount.