A real WW2 naval sword?

[KB1107]

Hello all,

 

A friend of mine recently purchased (Or think he did) a WW2 late naval sword. He said it was from the John Plimpton sword collection. He received it today and showed it to me. I immediately had my doubts... I’m not an expert by any means with swords.

 

What caught my eye the most was how clean and perfect everything is... the tsuba is brass (Not iron/naval), the tsuka is perfect (Too perfect), the suspension ring doesn’t match the rest of the saya fittings. The blade is nice and heavy and appears to be the only thing original WW2 part.

 

Any thoughts? The seller seems to have good feedback and appears to be selling a lot of swords from this collection... I hope I’m wrong and it’s just a nice piece. 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Hmmmmm.....................

 

This has all the appearance of one of the post war souvenir gunto made by the Tenshozan Factory.  Read this ARTICLE ON THE POST WAR SOUVENIR.

But the souvenir, until now, always had a rounded steel tsuba, and more gilded metal fittings.  It's only a guess, but my thinking is that it's one of the first versions of the souvenir.  There's certainly a chance it's a late-war gunto.  The only thing not "army" is the black fabric same'.  But I've seen a good number of these and the overall look is of the souvenir gunto.

[Brian]

All of the people involved in the Plimpton sale are reputable and most are members here.
If it's from that collection and one of the sellers (search Plimpton here) you should be fine. It's not a fake, and these have been discussed for many years. It may be wartime, it may be assembled from wartime parts just after the war. Has a stainless naval blade. What did he think he was purchasing? That will decide if he got a good deal or not.

[KB1107]

Thanks Bruce and Brian... he thought (he hopes) the he purchased a late war naval sword. I’ve looked at this morning... the tsuka looked to be black fabric and not black same’. Very good chance it’s a souvenir. The listing said late naval sword. As I said, the blade looks like the only original part to me, but I’m no an expert.

 

i agree, I looked at the swords in that collection and they all appear to be  originals. He spent a decent amount of money on this sword, too much if it’s only a souvenir.

[Bruce Pennington]

The souvenirs sell for 400 $ to 500 US$. All the fittings are army, not Navy. People get tricked by the Black scabbard paint, but there were plenty of army swords with black painted scabbards.

 

It can also be confusing to see a navy stamped blade in army fittings. That did happen, but was not common.

[ROKUJURO]

The HABAKI looks a bit strange, but I cannot see it clearly. 

[KB1107]

He sent me pics of the habaki...

[KB1107]

[Ian B3HR2UH]

David , your friend didn't get what he thought he was getting . This is horrible.

Ian Brooks

[KB1107]

Yup,,, that’s been my concern. I wish he would’ve asked my opinion before he purchased.... $1000.00 mistake

[ChrisW]

That habaki is truly an aberration and the casting quality on that fuchi sticks out like a sore thumb. Did he really get this from the Plimpton collection sale?

[KB1107]

Yes he did... as far as I know. He showed me the listing. I told him to contact them and explain he didn’t get what was advertised. He now too embarrassed to do it... 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Just because it's published doesn't stop it being total crap!

[ChrisW]

25 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Just because it's published doesn't stop it being total crap!

This is very true. I am sure that everyone has pieces in their collection they're not the proudest of. Didn't we have a thread dedicated to the 'total dogs' of our collections? Might be fun to start that back up.

[KB1107]

I agree with you Chris W... everybody has been a victim at one time or another, if you’ve been collecting for a while...I know I have (Unfortunately). Still mad about it....

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi David, this is from the same collection and a good example of what they should look like: https://www.ebay.com/itm/234381128137?hash=item36923431c9:g:2R0AAOSwtKhh5Yq3

 

They are smart looking pieces, despite their post war assembly.

 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi guys,

I, along with Mark Jones, Matt Jarrell, and Eric Molinier, purchased the Plimpton collection and have been selling it. This sword was in the collection but it wasn't sold on ebay by any of the 4 of us; it was sold some time back to a different sword dealer and he has placed it on ebay. We want all of you to know that when we are the sellers we will be honest in our descriptions and we will stand behind them. I think the sword's buyer should contact the seller and ask to return it.

Although I am not responsible for this sale, I would like to mention that the seller may have been relying on John Plimpton's description of the sword in his soon to be published book: "ARMY NAVY LATE WAR. These swords were made near the very end of the war by the Tokugawa naval arsenal in Aichi Prefecture. Many of them have mixed army and navy fiittings. All of them have navy arsenal stamps, stainless steel blades, and black lacquer scabbards. In rare cases the tang is signed."

Mr Plimpton has not been in good health and his description likely was written before modern research into the souvenir swords. That said, if the buyer is unhappy he should contact the seller; no honest seller wants dissatisfied buyers.

Thanks, Grey

[PNSSHOGUN]

The seller of this one on ebay is a good guy, pretty sure he accepts returns. Not quite sure about the information from the sample pages of that book, seems outdated or plain wrong in some cases. Much of it appears to draw from the first Fuller & Gregory books, which has a good deal of outdated information as Grey says. Nevertheless, I look forward to getting a copy for the excellent photos and reference pieces.

[ChrisW]

Appears the habaki is correct! But goodness, it certainly is an eyesore. The overall package looks fine but perhaps the casting quality is low because they were unable to finish them properly and had to rush. I am excited to see the Plimpton collection book.

Good luck with the sales Grey!

[Brian]

I think too many people smoking dubious stuff here. When did we go from legit late or post war sword assembled by Japan Sword Co, to terrible quality abomination?
Seriously? These are recognized as Japanese swords and are over 75 years old, made in Japan, from mostly wartime made parts. The blade is a genuine SS blade, the fittings likely made late war and some just after. It's not some Chinese repro.
They are not junk and many sit in good collections. Telling the OP that it's junk is just not accurate. Especially since research on these is not concluded yet.
It is not just a cheap junk souvenir. I expect there is a lot of truth still to be uncovered about these, like how and why they had permission to make and sell these and to whom.
I'm with Grey here, and the guys selling the collection. Whoever purchased it, added a decent markup to get to where it sold. And even at the end price it is around where a machine made NCO sword is priced at. Let's not put these at the level of modern Chinese fakes...they are not.

[KB1107]

Thanks everybody for your comments...

 

I will pass all this information onto my friend and he will need to decide whether to keep or reach out to the seller. Knowing Bob, he

will most likely keep it as long as it isn’t a Chinese repro.

 

 

[Baka Gaijin]

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

 

It may be a coincidence, but when the US Forces occupied Tokyo, (1945 - 1952), the Officers' Recreation Centre was based for some time in the former Imperial Naval Officers Club (Suikosha) situated on the Grounds of the old Hisamitsu Daimyo Residence in Minato - Ku.

 

It was a 12 minute walk to the area where the current premises of Japan Sword Company are situated, they were known to have produced "Tourist" items using former Military style mounts.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, Grey Doffin said:

These swords were made near the very end of the war by the Tokugawa naval arsenal in Aichi Prefecture. Many of them have mixed army and navy fiittings. All of them have navy arsenal stamps, stainless steel blades, and black lacquer scabbards. In rare cases the tang is signed.

Grey,

Is that a quote from the upcoming book?  It would explain a lot, and would be very useful information to know.  Like I said above, this seems to be a precursor to what Tenshozan put out for the Army PX after the war. 

[Grey Doffin]

Yes Bruce, a word for word quote. Grey

[Bruce Pennington]

13 hours ago, Grey Doffin said:

Tokugawa naval arsenal in Aichi Prefecture.

Just seeking clarification, and I'm no expert on WWII arsenals, but I cannot find a Tokugawa Navy Arsenal.  There was a Tokugawa shogunate in Aichi way back when, but all I find in WWII is the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal in Nagoya, Aichi, hence the circled anchor stamp on these blades. 

 

Forgive my ignorance, but is Mr. Plimpton alive, and is he available for email correspondence?  To me, this is still sounding too much like the post-war souvenir put out by the Tenshozan factory under the Toyokawa arsenal.  While the regulations loosened up for quality standards in the last year of the war, I cannot imagine the uniform regulations allowing for mixed Army/Navy fittings.  Now, I'll remind myself of the adage "Never say never, nor always, with WWII gunto."  When I first started studying this oddity, I was likewise wondering if they started using all available parts to assemble whatever gunto they could manage.  But after finding the documentation proving that Tenshozan was making souvenirs, and had an example with take-home papers, it is more conceivable to see these as post-war made, rather than late-war made.  So, I'd be interested to learn if Mr. Plimpton has other evidence verifying this particular style was made before war's end.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Bruce,

Unfortunately, Mr. Plimpton is not available for correspondence. I'm sure that when he acquired this sword he went with the information of the time and called it what he called it. Nothing more to add.

Grey

[Brian]

I think we can safely say that he intended it to be the Toyokawa Arsenal. That said, do we know for a fact that the swords weren't made towards the end of the war and thereafter? The blades are naval and obviously wartime made. So I think calling these late and post-war isn't far off.

[Kiipu]

The goal was a nice, shiny souvenir sword for sale by the PX.  Back then, the United States Army used the term "war trophy" or "war trophies" for military items acquired from the enemy.  Hence the wording used to describe these swords after the war.  Whatever parts that could be sourced were used so long as they could be made to look good.  Once all the wartime parts were used up, then newly made parts were used.  The contract would not have specified a certain pattern of sword to be made, just that it had eye appeal and was saleable.  These swords are as stated by another collector the book end to an era.  The last swords made in Imperial Japan, not as weapons, but as souvenirs for the occupationaires.

 

After reading hundreds of pages of archive documents, only one company was making swords after the war, Tenshōzan.  The Japan Sword Company did not make these swords and could not get involved in any form of production until the peace treaty was signed in 1952.