Type 95 Naval / Navy saya re paint

[Bruce Pennington]

21 hours ago, Kiipu said:

A Type 95 with a gray/grey painted handle and black painted scabbard.  It was made by Suya and is serial number 3422東.  The steel crossguard and second mekugi would indicate a rework at some point after manufacture.

Japanese Type 95 Army NCO Samurai Sword by Tokyo

That's quite an interesting piece, Thomas.  The serial number makes the blade originally a copper-handled 95, but it appears to have been re-fitted with aluminum handle and corresponding saya.

 

To the paint, there is the grey undercoat, but in the first pic you see a red bean or brown original coat, then the black over-paint.  All, including the grey tsuka paint looks old, war-period.

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Kiipu

Thomas

What do think this Kanji on the scabbard?𩋡 /鞘 for Saya ?

 

[Kiipu]

It is the only red paint I can see on the scabbard yet I can not make heads or tails out of it.  Relooking at the scabbard, it is numbered 3422 yet it has a much later scabbard as noted by BP.  This sword was clearly overhauled in a major way at some point in time.

[Stegel]

Hi Rob,

I'm with you in that i thought for sure the sword i have was a post war 'bubba' job, now yours is the second one i have seen in all my collecting time.

In Bruce's other thread i had mine also included in the photo, but  merely wanted to show a range of scabbard colours i have seen and own.

Having owned quite a few black scabbard nco's, i didn't see the big problem with them and had my doubts with all the negativity surrounding them.

All references in English give just the basic Olive drab from factory description, nothing else, and yet clearly others do exist, even Nickel plated ones, but they are not mentioned either.

When the IJA Camouflage Manual was discussed over at the WRF, it describes the 4 BASIC Colours used for camouflage purposes only. I looked into them from the Modellers veiwpoint ( they are meticulous on detail and historical accuracy) and made up the colour chart which i posted in Bruces thread.

We all know that other colours were used, such as yellow, orange, red, the whites and blacks. The 'Red Bean' also gets a mention by Nick over at WRF, but all these are not the 4-Basic Camouflage colours, so make of that what you will.

Anyway, to make a long story short, i began to look into the other colours and found a huge variety.... Early war, Late War, even the AIr Wing  which was part of the IJA but the IJN had its own. There are LOTS of colours.

When i made the comment

Quote

The 'Grey' at the end was only used in Naval colour schemes.

i was referring to the colour itself, and i still stand by this comment.

There were 4 different Naval arsenals that performed ship building and re-fitting of ships. Each of these had their own distinct colour version of greys, blues etc.

There is a huge variation in the greys and what is a standard colour compared to a 'camouflage' colour is out of my scope for now as we would need IJN manuals to be able to go further.

 

Here is a chart of the 4 colours used by the shipbuilding arsenals, although not shown, the first one has 4 variants, the second one 3, and the third one 2.

Also a photo mix of my 'Grey' type 95. 

 

Before i forget, it's good that Thomas asked for your serial numbers, although your blade is Kobe (Ichi), the scabbard is from Iijima (by serial numbers) which is still a Tokyo Arsenal sub contractor. Mine is also an Iijima produced sword (matching numbers) and also Grey painted over the Olive Drab original paint.

 

Just for interest i thought i'd share another recent find with you here. This time a  Suya produced sword(again Tokyo Arsenal), but it has a Nickel plated Tsuba and 'Blue' scabbard. It appears to have been stripped prior to the blue being applied, however there are traces of brown under the scabbard throat.

 

 

 

 

My understanding is that the IJN, didn't issue NCO's with swords, however, their Land Garrisons and NLF may have been different...they were essentially infantry under Naval Command.

I have a Type 98 with black painted wooden scabbard and black suede combat cover in my collection, it came with a Sam Brown style belt aswell, all from a vet who acquired it in New Guinea from a NLF member. 

I remember reading that a lot of these were re-posted with IJA units towards the end of the war, but don't quote me just yet, as i need to find more references and could be wrong. 

Perhaps there could be a link here to explain some of these strange scabbard colours we have.

Otherwise, it's all just Post War 'Bubba' activity at it's best.

 

[robinalexander]

2 hours ago, Stegel said:

In Bruce's other thread i had mine also included in the photo, but  merely wanted to show a range of scabbard colours i have seen and own.

Hi Stegel, 

 

Glad to see your detailed post and valued opinion.

 

Would have liked to respond earlier but in fact, I have been madly packing the car to head to Melbs at 0430 tmoz for a week.

 

In regard to the above quote, I'm glad you did include the scabbard colours/varations...good post...its the only way we can learn 

 

So the common thread here is both sayas (of the same colour variation) came from Iijima.  That is something to look out for in future.  In regard to serial numbers identifying (saya) arsenals, could you direct me to a thread on that info?  What a good resource!

 

Well the blue 95 is a little 'special'...do you belive it is a period repaint?  It looks to be, but I suppose a lot can happen in 80 years.

 

So we can probably safely discount the the issueing of 95's to navy NCO's. That only leaves the mysterious grey and I will have a keener eye out now for saya colour variations particulary Iijima (numbers would be needed 😊).

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shamsy]

 

51 minutes ago, robinalexander said:

So we can probably safely discount the the issueing of 95's to navy NCO's.

 

We cannot discount it entirely, but there is zero current evidence, so balance of probably. 

 

I work primarily with the intention of taking an evidence based approach and noting speculationwhen that is what it is. I enjoy speculation, but it should always be noted as such. At this stage (not discounting the possibility of future discoveries (which to go off on a tangent we find more about 95s every year despite pessimistic views there is 'nothing new to learn')) we can say there is no evidence at all of Type 95 saya being painted grey as any kind of army, navy or arsenal practice.

 

I think I have made my general thoughts and observations clear earlier regarding the myriad of different saya colours we typically encounter and how much evidence (and what type) exists to corroborate our current speculation. It's absolutely an interesting topic I'd like to discuss further, but with a critical mind and an openness to accept that sometimes it really is just a 'Bubba' job or something done by a veteran/owner/merchant past or present, for reasons known only to them.

[Bruce Pennington]

It's a difficult subject to be involved with, and yet the difficulty makes it all the more appealing for those of us who like the detective challenge!  It's important, like Steve said, to constantly remind ourselves about the facts, and use cautious language when hypothesizing.  I'm quite guilty of full-blown speculation all the time.  Yet, even our speculation, business models like to call it brain-storming, can push others to challenge or confirm the ideas and dig for more facts.  So, keep it going boys!

 

Ernie's ideas about the similarities of some of these greys and blues to naval colors is interesting.  The observation is simply a factual observation, and opens up a new direction for investigation.  I've had the blue one in hand, and can say that it has all the look and feel of a war-period paint job.  Having seen this, it really supports the nihonto guys' constant warnings that there is no better way to analyze a blade than having it in hand!  The age was clear in every aspect, down to grit and built-up grime in every crack and crevasse.  It also struck me as incomprehensible that someone would take the time and effort to "spruce up" an old gunto with nickel plating and a saya re-paint, and then .. what? .... beat it up, scrape it up, throw it around, etc, to make all the wear and tear marks this one has.  Sure, if a guy was intending to do a re-paint, but wanted it to look used in the war, he could go to those efforts.  But this one doesn't look that way.  The paint is old, the wear and tear look old, the grit and grime look old - it looks like something out of WWII.

 

Observation is part of the evidential pile that we build in examining a question.  Yes, it is opinion, but that's what we bring our old nihonto to the experts for - their observational opinion.  Not proof, but weighted evidence to be added to the scale.

[Bruce Pennington]

Just a note on that kaigunto, it's amazing to me the vast number of WWII gunto that show up on the market with those yellow cords. Bring-back gunto likely didn't come home in sword bags, yet these cords appear to be from sword bags.  Puzzling to me.

[Kiipu]

On 1/10/2022 at 1:07 AM, vajo said:

Is that a navy soldier?

 

I located the second photograph and it was discussed at the link below.  The officer is in the army's 2nd Guards Regiment.

Short Development History of Type 95 Gunto, Post #318

 

16 hours ago, Stegel said:

When the IJA Camouflage Manual was discussed over at the WRF, it describes the 4 BASIC Colours used for camouflage purposes only.

 

Here is the link for others in regards to the WRF discussion.

The Japanese Army’s 1943 Weapons Camouflage Manual

Edited January 11, 2022 by Kiipu

[robinalexander]

Very interesting theads thanks Thomas.