Type 95 Naval / Navy saya re paint

[robinalexander]

I recently came across Stegel's @Stegel pictures of the colour variations on Type 95 sayas (see first picture). As I recall, the one on the extreme right, was believed to be a IJN 'repaint' or origjnal grey paint?

 

I have a similar Type 95 that I thought had been given a 'bubba' job (that word still cracks me up Bruce 😊) but after seeing Stegel's great post & pics I am hoping mine is a 'naval respray'.  You can still see some remnants of original olive drab.

 

The colour of mine is exactly the same grey/with just smidgen of green, as that shown in Stegel's, picture.  Unfortunately, my pictures may not reproduce it's actual colour.

 

So my questions are, how common are these 'naval' Type 95 grey coloured sayas? I just havent seen any.

 

Is there a back story on them and did every IJN rating have one?

 

Thanks

Rob

 

 

 

 

[robinalexander]

Couple more pics. (Sorry about the toes )

 

 

[robinalexander]

[Bruce Pennington]

These are completely new to me, I haven't come across any like this.  Obviously, @Stegel, @Shamsy, and @BANGBANGSAN are the best guys to comment.

[Kiipu]

Rob, how about a picture of the scabbard mouth showing the serial number?  Bruce will give you a big "Thanks" to add to your score unless of course he has exceeded his limit again!

 

Below is a link to 47961 which is the next closest to the one above.

Arsenal Stamps., Page 18

[BANGBANGSAN]

It has an old repaint as we can see, but I'm not sure about the Navy version though. Some scabbard of the copper handle has that kind of grayish color but lighter.

 

 

[Kiipu]

Trystan, that reminds me that some of the early Type 95s had a gray, or for some grey, primer coat.  @Stegel has mentioned this more than once and below is a link to one of his missives.

Brass Scabbard NCO Copper Handle, Post #3

[robinalexander]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

Rob, how about a picture of the scabbard mouth showing the serial number?  Bruce will give you a big "Thanks" to add to your score unless of course he has exceeded his limit again!

 

Below is a link to 47961 which is the next closest to the one above.

Arsenal Stamps., Page 18

 

Thanks Thomas...pic of mismatched serial number 56750 (saya) attached. @Bruce Pennington The number font is ok but the varying size of individual numbers is a bit 'unusual'.    The saya is genuine...from the pic you can see the remnants of one side if the saya insert still in the saya. (Looks like I'll have to revisit the 'carpentry shop' for one or two inserts 😕)

 

Thanks for the link...I will get into that later today when more time.

 

 

Trystan, I just dont know if there was a 'navy' version either....or whether at some time/place in the war, some ordered that certain Type 95's should be repainted this colour.  As I said, in original post, the actual colour of mine is identical to the one in Stegel's picture (despite the difference in my pics).

[Shamsy]

I've been reconsidering my opinion on black saya. There are enough examples with legitimate patina and no traces of previous paint that I concede some may be originally painted black by the arsenal. There are still a great deal that have been repainted (some period, some post war). There are also black bayonet scabbard and Type 32s sayas, adding some credence to the idea of a black saya for Type 95s. I note no archival evidence (that I am aware of) that legitimises this, so it remains firmly as speculation.

 

There are also a great deal of different shades of green/brown and the 'red bean' colour appears occasionally. These are all on a lot of military equipment and to me are beyond doubt or speculation as their use is documented. The 'off cream' snow camouflage pops up rarely but seems to be period. There are also bayonets with the same cream coloured canvas winter camouflage covers, so I believe these legitimate wartime camo. Again, speculation. 

 

I've seen a couple of grey saya swords for sale. One was a wooden handle pattern 5 on ebay. The mint paint looked post war to me. I can't even remember the details of the other. Grey is also used as an undercoat on earlier swords, though it is a lighter shade. I have firm doubts about grey being some navy scheme. I'd like to hear the thoughts and evidence behind that.

 

Speaking of evidence, I'd love to see some actual primary evidence of 95 sayas being painted in these myriad of colours, something official from the archives, but I doubt it exists or Nick would likely have found it by now. Last I remember reading from Nick is that he though even black being 'officially approved' was doubtful enough. Has that conversation progressed in my hiatus or is this all speculative as it always has been? 

[Bruce Pennington]

I like your summary, Steve. 

 

I re-checked my black-saya and it clearly has that grey undercoat that guys are mentioning. 

 

 

[robinalexander]

Thanks Steve....seems a mystery still but as an aside, does anyone know if swords were issued/held hy IJN non-coms as was the case with the IJA?

 

Hopefully Stegel will have some more info or thoughts on the grey 95 saya.

 

 

[Shamsy]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I re-checked my black-saya and it clearly has that grey undercoat that guys are mentioning. 

 

 

Thanks, Bruce. I try to keep it neat and to the point, but always have more little bits to add. I'm pretty open to the idea of 95 saya being altered for camouflage, but I think it's important to note that this is what we think. Just an educated guess, but not officially verified. 

 

I have a few swords with the undercoat. It is most evident early on, with the coppers and the transition swords, but seems to be somewhat sporadically evident in later swords. Some swords appear not to have any undercoat too, but it could just be that where there is wear, both the undercoat and basecoat were worn away.

 

Edit to add a photo. I was going to be lazy, but decided to add a photo of a couple of good examples of undercoats. Unsurprisingly, the best examples I have are coppers.

[robinalexander]

2 hours ago, Shamsy said:

have a few swords with the undercoat. It is most evident early on, with the coppers and the transition swords, but seems to be somewhat sporadically evident in later swords

 Steve, when you say you have a few swords with the undercoat, I suppose that means the two coppers as shown but do you have any 95's that are all grey (undercoat) ?

Thanks Rob

[Kiipu]

A Type 95 with a gray/grey painted handle and black painted scabbard.  It was made by Suya and is serial number 3422東.  The steel crossguard and second mekugi would indicate a rework at some point after manufacture.

Japanese Type 95 Army NCO Samurai Sword by Tokyo

[BANGBANGSAN]

11 hours ago, robinalexander said:

Thanks Steve....seems a mystery still but as an aside, does anyone know if swords were issued/held hy IJN non-coms as was the case with the IJA?

 

Hopefully Stegel will have some more info or thoughts on the grey 95 saya.

 

 

According to Fuller, this is the Navy version NCO sword.

 

 

[vajo]

Trystan is this plate 78?

"Indian or native made wartime copy sold to allied troops"

[Shamsy]

I agree with Chris. I know F&G mention it and say this is reputed to be a naval NCO sword, but it looks awfully like an island sword. The fact they note that tells me they thought that likely too.

 

Edit to add the later update from F&G regarding the 'Naval NCO' sword @BANGBANGSAN

[Shamsy]

10 hours ago, robinalexander said:

 Steve, when you say you have a few swords with the undercoat, I suppose that means the two coppers as shown but do you have any 95's that are all grey (undercoat) ?

Thanks Rob

 

No sword with anything but the light grey undercoat. The grey swords I've seen for sale that I can actually remember were not that long ago and they looked post war. The pattern 5 was so minty with paint and no patina. It was on eBay, maybe someone has a copy of the pics.

[BANGBANGSAN]

It doses like island made sword, but the hanger is different than all the other island made swords. It could like Fuller says "Indian or native made wartime copy sold to allied troops".I never saw any photo of Navy NCO carrying a Type 95 sword, anyone?

[Shamsy]

Neither have I... would love to see a picture if anyone has one.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Was it only officers & cadets that carried swords or daggers in the IJN? 

[robinalexander]

Interesting thread.

 

John I reckon that would close to the mark in that it was only Officers/cadets that carried swords in the IJN. 

 

That is based purely on the fact that there are thousands (many) IJA NCO's in the world today and an equal number of references pictures of the same.  BUT what evidence is there of junior ranks swords in the IJN???????? none.  No swords, no pictures and no written references. Therefore they probably didn't exist (until proven otherwise )

 

 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The special naval landing forces used a mixed bag of equipment, perhaps they used the Type 95?

[robinalexander]

 

Wikipedia 'says' SNLF uniforms ended up being greenish for most of the war years but there seems to be a fair amount of info suggesting they were more grey in colour. 

 

At least some SNLF or associated units seemed to have grey uniforms, ships were grey, so I suppose it's not beyond the realms of possibility that some SNLF NCO sayas were period repainted grey to differentiate.

 

Pure speculation.  

 

[Kiipu]

This is the most recent tome on the topic and the author posts from time to time over at WRF and GBF.

Rikusentai: The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Japanese Naval Landing Forces 1927-1945

[vajo]

I never saw a picture of a navy nco with a sword. Anyone knows one?

[vajo]

Is that a navy soldier?

 

[robinalexander]

Chris the figure in the first picture is not real.....its the Samurai Monkey

 

But seriously, it could be an officer in SNLF or IJN 

 

The second picture/figure has rank badge of either 2nd Lieutenant or Corporal (very similar in black and white picture).  But if you take the sword & tassel into account, he would be a corporal in the IJA.  Not IJN.

 

I scoured the web for hours today looking for any signs of grey 95's and also any naval NCO's with swords.....no luck with either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The 2nd picture shows a IJA 2nd Lieutenant with a Shin Gunto, the Tsuba is non-regulation. The wikipedia entry for IJA ranks is very handy, as it gives the rank in Kanji: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_of_the_Imperial_Japanese_Army

[robinalexander]

Good eyes John...of course there is no fuller either.