Menuki attribution and thoughts welcome

[Chishiki]

I went in hard to acquire these menuki as I just love them.   They measure a long 9.5cm.  Have a shumei written on the inside which I cannot read.   They are still in Japan and I am just bursting to share them with you.  They have a green paper but I would like to hear opinions from members here.  Mark

[Chishiki]

 

[ROKUJURO]

Mark,

beautiful, but huge! EZO?

[Chishiki]

15 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Mark,

beautiful, but huge! EZO?

When I first saw them Ezo was exactly my thought but the paper says otherwise.   I think these fall into a grey area.🤔   Mark

[kyushukairu]

I think the attribution on the papers is accurate, though ‘Edo-Umetada’ may be more precise. The signature style of the Edo branch of the Umetada was thick gilding in surihagashi [摺り剝がし] (polished to reveal the base metal on the protruding points) which was commonly done on shibuichi to replicate yamagane and create an antique appearance, which can be considered to be reminiscent of ‘Ezo’ tosogu.

 

[Chishiki]

5 hours ago, kyushukairu said:

I think the attribution on the papers is accurate, though ‘Edo-Umetada’ may be more precise. The signature style of the Edo branch of the Umetada was thick gilding in surihagashi [摺り剝がし] (polished to reveal the base metal on the protruding points) which was commonly done on shibuichi to replicate yamagane and create an antique appearance, which can be considered to be reminiscent of ‘Ezo’ tosogu.

 

Hi Kyle.   No doubt you saw the listing.   Yes the papers say 'UMETADA'.   I do remember reading a comment about Ezo Revival somewhere.   That would explain the size, the base metal and wear to the gilding.  Mark 

[kyushukairu]

Yes, Mark. I saw them listed online. I’ve attached a good example of an Edo-Umetada tsuba [by Narimasa 就方], which nicely exhibits their surihagashi technique. I had another look at your papers and noticed that the description states that they are made from shakudo. In Sesko’s Toso-Kinko, it notes that the 2nd gen. Narishige [就受], created this style of shibuichi and gilt in surihagashi. I don’t know if Edo-Umetada also worked in shakudo [though I do have a papered suaka Edo-Umetada tsuba], but I recall reading somewhere that early Umetada artists [in Kyoto] also practiced surihagashi, so new papers might actually receive the same attribution. 

 

[Chishiki]

The papers.  Interesting it seems a low number.  156, not that it means anything.   Kyle I'm surprised to hear they are shakudo,  assumed shibuichi.   But as they say, buy the piece and not the paper.   Contemplating shinsa, potentially achieving nothing but it's out of interest.  Mark  btw  nice tsuba and thanks for the detailed info and reply.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Man Kyle, awesome insights. A+

[Curran]

I didn't realize the menuki were that large.  I considered bidding on them myself, but am fighting with myself to save up money for another purchase later this year.

 

Doc Kyle's writeup is spot-on. My first thought was Ezo, but the longer I look at them the more I agree with Edo revival.   --Still, nice posts on the backside point towards older. Nice set.

[Chishiki]

On 1/8/2022 at 5:49 AM, Curran said:

I didn't realize the menuki were that large.  I considered bidding on them myself, but am fighting with myself to save up money for another purchase later this year.

 

Doc Kyle's writeup is spot-on. My first thought was Ezo, but the longer I look at them the more I agree with Edo revival.   --Still, nice posts on the backside point towards older. Nice set.

Hi Curran.   Submitted for shinsa.  Let's see where they go with attribution.   I will let you know the results.   We are having a 'nearest the pin ' guessing game.  So far opinions are ko umetada, umetada, ko kinko and ezo.   I think that covers all possibilities.   😆.    For me the 'ko' attribution is more important than the school.  I always thought they were early...momoyama, early edo maybe.   The work is is nice.  I think there is an error on the kicho paper.  Apparently it says shakudo base but from what I can see I think shibuichi is more correct.  I've never held them so just speculating.  Personally my guess is ko umetada.  Mark

[Bugyotsuji]

How did it go Mark? Since then I have acquired an iron tsuba with a very similar ‘plum’ branch design, signed simply 埋忠.

 

 

[Curran]

Shinsa results are so slow these days.

In recent years I have been submitting less, and this last shinsa I think I submitted 7+months ago and still waiting for the items to come back.

It will probably be 8 to 9 months before back.

 

While I did get 2 very favorable results that I am happy about... and two "Captain Obvious" Higo results,

you REALLY have to want to have something papered these days to put up with the long lag. I'd love to hear Mark's results, but it will probably be a while before he hears back.

 

[Chishiki]

13 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

How did it go Mark? Since then I have acquired an iron tsuba with a very similar ‘plum’ branch design, signed simply 埋忠.

Hi, nothing heard yet.   When submitted I was told the results would come out about June.   I'll  update you as soon as I hear anything.   

 

Mark

[Winchester]

Happy for you!!!! Enjoy!

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Mark,

as it seems that you cannot receive PMs, I will post this here:

Did you see my set of MENUKI which I showed already a number of years ago? They share the same subject with yours, but are not as long. Other collectors immediately thought they were EZO, but to everybody's amazement they are signed NARA.

They once belonged to the Behrens collection and were sold on auction about 1906, if I remember correctly.

Kind regards,

Jean

[Chishiki]

5 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Mark,

as it seems that you cannot receive PMs, I will post this here:

Did you see my set of MENUKI which I showed already a number of years ago? They share the same subject with yours, but are not as long. Other collectors immediately thought they were EZO, but to everybody's amazement they are signed NARA.

They once belonged to the Behrens collection and were sold on auction about 1906, if I remember correctly.

Kind regards,

Jean

Hi, not sure why I couldn't receive your message but nice of you to post your menuki here.  Personally I wouldn't have called ezo on those menuki.   I am just a novice here but what I have been finding out is that the theme of these menuki seem to be used over a broad number of groups and periods.   Do you have a photo of the underneath and have you an opinion as to period of make?  Thanks for taking interest in this thread.

Mark

[ROKUJURO]

Hi Mark, 

 

I have to confess that I cannot fix the period of manufacture of my MENUKI other than EDO JIDAI, but I don't think they are late EDO. That is just a feeling, not based on factual knowledge.

[Chishiki]

Hi. I wish I could add some useful info for you but my knowledge is fairly basic.   I would concur with you though that a fair assessment would be early edo, 17th C.  You said they signed, is there a mei on the side?   Thanks again for joining the thread.  Mark

[Ian]

Mounted on one of my katana. Quite similar!?

[ROKUJURO]

Hi Mark,

here is the MEI.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Sometimes worth repeating that 梅 umé indicates Japanese apricot, although it was often translated as ‘plum’. Those shriveled red salted umeboshi things come from this tree.

(A recent NHK video diary on Warōsoku candles and natané rape seed oil lamps uses the word apricot throughout when describing the blossoms.)

 

PS Forgot to add sizes to the Umetada rain dragon Tsuba above: 8.2 x 7.6 x 0.4  cm. Tsuchime ji & Tekkotsu.

[Chishiki]

Very interesting Piers, a nice clarification of the theme.   It seems Umetada were fairly prolific with it.   I don't know for sure but the other tsuba shown by Ian probably fits this school too.   From what I can see it is repeated from muromachi period and seems to be uncommon from the mid edo period.   Also interesting to see those Nara menuki.   I didn't have any experience with that group but searching around it seems they used a fairly highly refined looking copper.   Nice theme, one of my favourites.  Thanks for the input.  Mark

[Chishiki]

On 5/19/2022 at 9:43 PM, Curran said:

Shinsa results are so slow these days.

In recent years I have been submitting less, and this last shinsa I think I submitted 7+months ago and still waiting for the items to come back.

It will probably be 8 to 9 months before back.

 

While I did get 2 very favorable results that I am happy about... and two "Captain Obvious" Higo results,

you REALLY have to want to have something papered these days to put up with the long lag. I'd love to hear Mark's results, but it will probably be a while before he hears back.

 

Hi Curran, just a note on my experience with the shinsa process.   When submitted my friend produced the green papers as I thought they presented a gateway to Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa.   The staff member just threw them back and was totally uninterested in them.   Fair enough, now I know.   My question is were the green papers 'ever' acknowledged for submission to Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa for fittings?   

Mark

[Curran]

@Chishiki     Yes, previously green papers could be presented and the item submitted to Tokubetsu Hozon or given a marginal discount when submitted to Hozon.

Sometime in the last 8 years or so, they did away with that.

 

 

[Chishiki]

The results are in.   Tokubetsu Hozon.  Umetada.  Well happy with the Tokubetsu Hozon result and the Umetada attribution was always at the top of the possibilities.   The disappointment is that I think they should be Ko-Umetada.   Oh well....we move on.  Mark

[Curran]

On 6/5/2022 at 9:39 AM, Chishiki said:

The results are in.   Tokubetsu Hozon.  Umetada.  Well happy with the Tokubetsu Hozon result and the Umetada attribution was always at the top of the possibilities.   The disappointment is that I think they should be Ko-Umetada.   Oh well....we move on.  Mark

 

@Chishiki   Careful with the nomenclature there.  

 

While we know Nara and Umetada works a certain way,

the names "Ko-Nara" and "Ko-Umetada"  imply not so much => OLD  as they do the very different school or workmanship that was produced in that area before a certain time.

Thus....  Ko-Nara works are some interesting mostly iron works (we think of most Nara stuff as very kinko), and Ko-Umetada works are mostly very simple iron tsuba that border on crude... but have different proportions than Ko-shoami.

 

Thus... TH to Umetada   is nicer to have than TH to Ko-Umetada. I don't think I have ever seen anything Ko-Umetada get TH papers.

I think what you would wish for is TH Umetada that had (Momoyama or early Edo) written in parenthesis.

 

 

 

[Chishiki]

Hi Curran, that all makes sense.   Thanks for the clarification.  I still think they could have stipulated a time frame, momoyama, early edo, whatever.  Not much value for money at nearly 50,000¥ as you know.   I think they are clearly early with the thin plate and posts as they are.   Maybe in NBTHK the classification of Umetada satisfactorily covers that period.   Just as side note I've often wondered if there is a recognised scholar in fittings who does hakogaki the same as Tanobe does sayagaki for swords. 

Thanks again Curran.

[Curran]

5 hours ago, Chishiki said:

Hi Curran, that all makes sense.   Thanks for the clarification.  I still think they could have stipulated a time frame, momoyama, early edo, whatever.  Not much value for money at nearly 50,000¥ as you know.   I think they are clearly early with the thin plate and posts as they are.   Maybe in NBTHK the classification of Umetada satisfactorily covers that period.  

 

@Chishiki    Don't I know it.

The NBTHK wait kills me. It gets worse each year, though at least the opinions are getting more knowledgeable after whatever super transition drop off happened in 2014.

 

Still, you have to pay for TH to get more than a relatively Captain Obvious opinion.

Hozon "Higo" papers?   Phhhhssh. Even my wife could have said Higo at a glance. I thought they'd at least put the school on it, but obviously hoped for too much to get to venture which generation at the Hozon level. Also, "Den" at the TH level is becoming more common and is rather gutless.  "TH  Den Hirata" =   we know it is Hirata, and it might be 1st gen Hikozo => but we have no balls, so we will say Den Hirata.

   With the new rules the NBTHK is putting up about submitting items, it is an even higher hurdle for foreigners and their agents.

 

I like your menuki and think TH to Umetada is a good attribution. Best would have been TH to Ezo, but I think TH to Umetada is a close second. To me, it beats a TH to Ezo (Edo) type attribution. The backs are nice, and I too think them somewhere in the early 1600s workmanship.

 

[kissakai]

Curran I sent you tsuba as such:

T210 - Six Ken - papered to ko Umetada

I know it is not menuki but it is an example of papers to ko Umetada