Is this tsuba from Katchushi school?

[Kurikata]

Hi,

 

I have this square iron tsuba for a while. I purchased it as a "Katchushi school tsuba" but I have some doubt as many kantei points do not correspond (mimi / Kiku gata / Fan design /....). Just to point out that this tsuba is ubu.

 

What are you views?

[Surfson]

I like the tsuba Bruno.  How thick is it?  If quite thin, maybe it's Tosho?   Although admittedly, it would be an atypical design.

[Kurikata]

Thank you Robert for your kind comments. In fact this tsuba is quite thin but as for Katchushi attribution it does not look like a Tosho tsuba either.

[ROKUJURO]

Bruno,

as you may know, there is no KACHUSHI school. The term refers to TSUBA made originally by armour smiths (so far the theory). In later times the stylistic elements were used for a fashion. The same applies to TOSHO TSUBA - not a school, but a style.

Many see a thicker MIMI (ORIKAESHI or DOTE) as an indication to KACHUSHI, others the minimal thickness, and again others the size and number of the SUKASHI. 

I would see your TSUBA as an early EDO JIDAI item with stylistic hints to KACHUSHI, but I don't think it is a KO-KACHUSHI TSUBA.

[GRC]

I read somewhere that really fine webs between the sukashi elements of a Tosho or Katchushi style tsuba, is a sign that it was done in the Edo period, rather than pre-Edo.

I forget where I read that though...

Also, that shape and the boar eyes don't show up in tosho or katchushi guards, so it suggests it was made later, but "in the style of" the earlier Tosho & Katchushi guards.

 

I have seen multiple examples of NBTHK papered Katchushi tsuba without the raised mimi that they typically have... making things a little more difficult to distinguish between Tosho and Katchushi styles.

 

Regardless, Haynes has put forward the idea that we should classify both the "Tosho" and "Katchushi" style tsuba as TANKO (metalworkers) tsuba because neither of these styles can actually be proved to be made exclusively by either swordsmiths (tosho) or armoursmiths (katchushi). 

So "Tosho" and "Katchushi" are merely labels of convenience and not proper classification labels.

 

Here are some examples of what you typically see with their fan motifs:

Tosho:

Katchushi:

 

 

 

[Kurikata]

Thank you Jean and Glen. Definitivly an edo tsuba for sure and probably a tribute to armourer Smith. Thank you for your interest. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Bruno, I like your tsuba. 0.3 cm thick at mimi? What are your three sizes?

[Surfson]

Bruno, FYI, there is a tsuba that is square like this listed as the first figure in Sesko's "Japan's most important sword fittings" book, that is Juyo bunkazai and listed as Ko-katchushi.  I am not knowledgeable enough to tell you the era in which yours was made.  

[Surfson]

My sense about tsuba like these is that the thinner they are, the older they are, and 3mm is fairly thin.  Also, the carvings get a certain amount of wear to them so that the cuts are very much rounded off.  

[Kurikata]

 

17 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Bruno, I like your tsuba. 0.3 cm thick at mimi? What are your three sizes?

Hi Piers,

 

Tsuba dimension is:

 

Thickness: 0,2 to 0,3 cm at mimi.

Height is 7,7 cm

Width is 7,5 cm

 

Thank you for your interest.

 

[Kurikata]

5 minutes ago, Surfson said:

My sense about tsuba like these is that the thinner they are, the older they are, and 3mm is fairly thin.  Also, the carvings get a certain amount of wear to them so that the cuts are very much rounded off.  

Robert,

the seller (Australian one) sold it to me in 2008 as a late muromachi / Momoyama one but I had my doubts. That's the reason why, after research , I was calling for more help on NMB 

[Surfson]

I'm no expert in tosogu, no doubt, but it could be older.  Many early ones get hitsuana added later.  This one seems to have escaped that since the sukashi design uses up the room for ato hitsu ana.  

[GRC]

Well, did a bit of digging and found some things that might help (or not lol):

 

Boar eyes (inome) go way back, approx 1400 years in Japanese culture, so that's no indicator of pre or post Edo.

I spotted some early Onin tsuba tsuba with inome, so it was definitely used in some of the earliest katana tsuba motifs.

I also found some Tosho and Katchushi that had some inome (boar eye) sukashi.

 

I found a Tosho example that is stated as Edo period: https://www.Japan-onlineshop.com/antike-stuecke/50-tsuba-tosho.html

Other than the overall shape, it's quite similar to yours in colour and general design features.

 

And found this one papered by NBTHK as Edo period Tosho, not pre-Edo "Ko-tosho":

 

Here's two Katchushi tsuba with inome:

 

So, just how old is yours? I have no idea lol

Cool tsuba though, thanks for sharing 

[Kurikata]

Thank you Glen for such nice exemples. I tend to think my tsuba being from the very beginning of Edo. You braught information I could'nt find myself on the web. Thank you so much once again !

[Alex A]

I like it too

 

What is the nakago-ana size ?

 

 

[Kurikata]

Alex,

 

Nakago size is 3 cm by 1 cm.

[Kurikata]

[Alex A]

Made for hefty blade Bruno, even after being altered to the 8MM width.  

 

Seller said Momoyama, ana measurements meets the stout blades around at that time.

 

Its difficult, just got to work with what you have

 

Not studied tsuba for a long time, but from memory, read somewhere that when you come across thin plate tsuba like this that are not of the norm (as in square), was a Momoyama trait.

 

The plate on your tsuba looks uniform, Edo, but perhaps just in good preservation, the edges also look crisp.

 

Ive seen tsuba that date to the end of the Muromachi in this condition.

 

Just thoughts, im here to to learn to. Perhaps ask folk like Ford Hallam, Mariusz a good call to as he has seen quite a few of these over the years.

 

As for Katchushi/Tosho, dont really matter, to me.

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

This one is slightly larger at 8.5 x 8.6 x 0.4 cm. One blocked hitsu ana. Apart from the sukashi, there are faint remains of Amida yasuri both sides throughout. Consistent and precise work throughout. Tight, compact, almost flat, but faintly thicker at the middle and tapering away to the sides(?) Does this point to Tosho, and early Edo, I wonder?

 

Photo going into the torpedo tube... now

 

 

 

[FlorianB]

The noted tapering at the edge is typical for later Tosho-style works, the circle is too exact and the carving on the butterfly is unusual for old examples, so my gut feeling tends to a later reminiscence from Edo.

However an impressive work. I like it.

 

Florian

[Alex A]

Im just wondering if the circle Sukashi was added later, as the edges dont appear as worn as the butterfly, maybe just the image though ?

[Bugyotsuji]

Good question, Alex. I’ll have a look when I get a chance, and report back.

 

13 hours l8r

With the benefit of handling.

The edges of the round aperture are softer, less sharp overall than the edges of the Nakago ana. The rust on the walls is of a similar darkness to the walls of the butterfly sukashi.