Question about daisho

[DTM72]

I have a question regarding a katana and wakizashi from the same smith.

Let's say you have a papered katana from a Smith that alone could sell for (using simple numbers) $1000. You also have a papered wakizashi from the same smith that alone could sell for $600. Individually that is a value of $1600. If they were in very similar or matching koshirae and sold as a set, would the value still be $1600 or would the value be more because of being a daisho? 

For it to be a true set, would it have to also contain some kind of provenance or story or just papers from accredited organization...NTHK, NBTHK, etc.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Mark S.]

Try a read of Darcy’s explanation of daisho to see if that helps.

 

https://blog.yuhindo.com/daisho-and-daishoisnt/

[Surfson]

This is a good question Dan.  I think that it depends on the swords and the mounts.  One sees daisho where the mounts are not particular noteworthy, but they do match.  In such cases, I would think that there is no premium for the daisho compared to two separate swords.  When the mounts are particularly nice, having a full daisho set probably does add some value, though I would think in most cases, the premium would be modest.  Buying a daisho is more of a commitment, since the buyer is buying two swords in one purchase.  

[DTM72]

48 minutes ago, Mark S. said:

Try a read of Darcy’s explanation of daisho to see if that helps.

 

https://blog.yuhindo.com/daisho-and-daishoisnt/

Great article! Thanks Mark.

For me, it is not a matter of assembling to make a profit....at least not in the next 20 years. I just like the thought of a matching set, by the same smith.

[NewB]

It depends on the smith IMHO. Having a matching (and hopefully dated) set with matching koshirae increases the value way more than them sold separately. There are a lot of people that have a different take on that But I firmly believe that. 

 

Think of sudare ba by Yoshimichi 

Yokoyama Sukenaga 

Yasutsugu nanbantetsu etc etc.

 

John

[DTM72]

I already own an early Edo era katana that is mumei, but papered by the NTHK with five stamps. The wakizashi is at an auction from a militaria auction house coming in a couple weeks that is signed and dated with an older NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon paper. I'm now a little torn as to getting it.

I haven't mentioned the name of the Smith as I'm hoping there will be few bidders.

[Nihontocollector752]

The most valuble Daisho are papered together such as this example:

 

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/H1461_2__S2228_PUP_E.html

 

So if you have confirmed swords produced as a couple and koshirae produced as a couple then you know it is a "true" Daisho. But, regardless if the koshirae matches then in general we accept any combination as a diasho.

 

Ladder theory

[Geraint]

Dear Dan.

 

I would respectfully suggest that you are thinking of collecting swords from a particular smith or school, a perfectly valid collecting goal, rather than assembling a daisho.  I confess that I get the same urge when I see another sword by a smith whose work I already own and admire though I do not have the means to pursue that idea in any meaningful way.

 

It has all been said above but two swords by the same maker are not in any real sense a daisho unless specific evidence points to the fact that they were made that way.  The same is true for tsuba, with some of the more commonplace designs it is relatively easy to find two very similar examples and, voila, they are a daisho.  At that level the concept is meaningless, find a pair of kinko tsuba whose design might not be identical but were clearly made as a daisho pair from the start and we are talking a different ball game.  

 

If you like the work of the smith in question then buying the wakizashi will give you a basis for comparative study and  a chance to start to get under the skin of the maker, who knows, perhaps that will start a collecting journey.

 

Let us know how this turns out for you.

 

All the best.

[mas4t0]

Darcy's article covers everything important, so there really isn't much to add. To put together two unmatched blades as a daisho pair is either a marketing effort or a personal project. It could increase the value a bit for the right buyer.

 

I personally wouldn't bother with a daisho unless papered together or newly commissioned as a matched set.

 

Even then, I'd feel wasteful in the resource allocation and would rather have a single higher level blade or koshirae.

 

That is unless the blades or koshirae are each interesting in their own right, and the two works form a unique unified whole. A unified work of art where the whole set is necessary and the whole is far more than the sum of its parts.

 

So for example, matched tosogu in the theme of sun on the katana and moon on the wakizashi, or larval stage insects on the wakizashi and adult on the katana, with the whole set created together by the same hand as a single project.

 

Matched but not identical, brother and sister or husband and wife as opposed to twins where one is a runt.

 

I wouldn't go with a design dominated by matching kamon, for instance, unless it was of great historical importance.

 

I'm much more taken by the idea of paired koshirae and a maki-e kake, which is an integral part of the overall design, than by a pair of matched blades.

 

Just my personal take after many years of considering this from time to time.

[DTM72]

11 minutes ago, mas4t0 said:

Just my personal take after many years of considering this from time to time.

 

Great information. Thank you!

[waljamada]

I know I'd pay a premium for a daisho even if not paired from their birth.  Sourcing blades that fit (both size & mekugi wise/ aesthetically/historically etc..) with antique matching/paired koshirae is difficult and daisho koshirae also seem pretty rare.  

 

I'm putting together a pair of urushi red lacquered bohi blades but they would only be very loosely daisho....same bohi designs and red lacquer...one katana length one wakizashi...that's about it.  Over time I will find suitable existing antique daisho koshirae (tall order) or have made (using antique fittings I will have to purchase) matching or a paired theme koshirae for them.  They will be my personal daisho, nothing more.  If someone did all that work for me I would have paid a premium.

 

Also from what I've seen both dealers (Japanese & others) and collectors in the vast majority use the term daisho to include simply two blades in matching/paired koshirae.  So it's very liberal meaning seems well and broadly used but still a "true daisho" is the epitome.

[Surfson]

I'm just guessing here, but I would imagine that most daisho built for order during the Edo period had non matching swords, and that many of these daisho survive today.  

 

I would not assume that all daisho that are not made with matching swords clearly produced for the daisho were assembled by dealers or collectors.  To the contrary, most that I have seen give the impression that they were assembled during Edo.  I have a daisho set of koshirae that came out of the Compton collection, and the interesting thing about them is that one tsuba was made as a nearly perfect utsushi of the other tsuba in the daisho.  The two tsuba differ by over 100 years in age as I recall.  I think that many samurai carried daisho during the duration of Edo, and that the majority of them probably had two swords made by different makers.

[Gakusee]

https://blog.yuhindo.com/daisho/

 

If you want truly matched swords, go for Shinto, or more likely - ShinShinto or Gendaito. If it is the koshirae only - it has been discussed in the referenced links. 

[DTM72]

35 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

https://blog.yuhindo.com/daisho/

 

If you want truly matched swords, go for Shinto, or more likely - ShinShinto or Gendaito. If it is the koshirae only - it has been discussed in the referenced links. 

The katana I already own is not dated, but was given an era of Meireki (1655). The Wakizashi is dated from Manji (1658). The katana is o-suriage and lost its information along the way. The NTHK papers have 6 stamps, so I fell pretty confident in their attribution.

As the article states, this will be an assembled set, not intended as a pairing by the smith. Still on the fence about getting the wakizashi and trying to "assemble" this daisho. The reading has been very enlightening!

[mas4t0]

5 hours ago, DTM72 said:

The katana I already own is not dated, but was given an era of Meireki (1655). The Wakizashi is dated from Manji (1658). The katana is o-suriage and lost its information along the way. The NTHK papers have 6 stamps, so I fell pretty confident in their attribution.

As the article states, this will be an assembled set, not intended as a pairing by the smith. Still on the fence about getting the wakizashi and trying to "assemble" this daisho. The reading has been very enlightening!

 

Dan,

 

To further clarify the point on assembling a daisho of blades which are not papered together, I feel some more context would be helpful.

 

If the blades are mumei, unless they're top tier, it's unlikely that they're by the same smith even if they are attributed as such in the papers. It's simply impossible to know with certainty. What you're really pairing are two blades of the same era, same school and equal quality, but not necessarily by the same smith.

 

Not to speak for him, but I believe this is what Michael @Gakuseewas referring to above.

 

Rather than going into great detail here, I'll provide a reference link when I find one. Bear with me a few minutes.

 

Edit:

https://blog.yuhindo.com/attribution-is-everything-and-when-its-not-it-almost-is/

 

The following isn't referenced in the link, but seems pertinent to add.

 

The etymology of the word daishō becomes apparent when the terms daitō, meaning long sword, and shōtō, meaning short sword, are considered; daitō + shōtō = daishō.

 

Any pairing of a long sword and a short sword would be a daishō in that regard, but if that's all we mean by it, it becomes a somewhat meaningless term to us as collectors.

 

The term would apply to any two blades placed together on a kake with one above and one below the threshold for being considered a long sword.

 

While it's true that many daishō worn in the past would likely have been entirely mismatched, without provenance it's very unlikely you'll be reuniting two unmatched swords that were historically worn together as a samurai's daishō.

 

An edict in 1629 defining the duties of a samurai required that daishō be worn when on official duty. Two swords were required to be worn as part of their official duties. There was no requirement for them to match, though this would have indicated greater wealth and status.

 

Other then commissioning new blades or tosogu or for the sake of reenactment, LARP or cosplay, I don't understand the desire to assemble your "own daishō", as the concept simply doesn't apply.

 

I don't say this to be abrasive, I'm just somewhat baffled by the whole thing. What do you achieve by pairing the blades, and referring to it as a daishō, unless you also fabricate a back story?

 

It's like trying to match up an old pair of boxing gloves by purchasing left handed and right handed gloves individually.

 

A little bit of socratic questioning perhaps. Exploring what we're trying to achieve can often help clarify our goals and intentions.