Toyokawa blade, WW2 or Post war produced?

[lambo35]

This blade came in the attached picture of the saya. Do you think they are war time or post war produced?

The two small brass seppa were ebay pick ups, the Kabutogane was from a board member in Australia, the other Koshiare parts were purchased from shop in San Mateo, CA. in 2018. The shop owner stated that the blade in the saya were together when he picked them up, but, he does not remember when. The  "sun ray" di-seppa and tsuba fit perfectly on the blade when I assembled the koshiare after fitting the tsuka to the nakago. What do you folks think about my original question?

Edited December 28, 2021 by lambo35
Added information.

[Bruce Pennington]

Chuck,

The saya came just as it is in the picture?  And the blade was bare, or had the tsuba and dai-seppa with it?

 

As to the blade, it's near impossible to know if it was made before or just after the war.  Those stainless blades can be pretty clean.  The post-war blades tend to have unfinished ends on the nakago, but not always.  I've seen a few of the souvenir rigs with well shaped jiri.  So, no way to know just by the blade.

 

Still need to know more about the saya, though.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The Saya looks like post war parts bodging: Type 3 drag, black lacquer saya, Type 98 and combat ashi and Type 98 kuchigane. You may as well put some Type 95 NCO sword parts on there and have parts from all major swords types fielded from 1934 to 1945 in one handy reference package

[lambo35]

Bruce, the saya came with the bare blade in it. The two ashi came with the saya. The ashi have bare wood beneath them, the combat ashi was a little lose so I was able to wiggle it around to determine the that the black paint was applied after the ashi were fit. The T98 ashi had been cut on the back side so I was able remove it and determined that it was also fit before the saya was painted. The red paint between the two bands of the T98 ashi I am not sure about, it looks like it was applied at about the same time the black paint was, there was no black paint under the red, but, a previous owner put black paint over the red at a later time. Ii was able to rub off the over painted black with a rag and alcohol. The drag was also fit before the saya was painted

 

John, that is not a bad idea. :<)  The mekugi ana, on the right side had a round fiber type bushing with a hole in it, wedged in, the tsuka picture shows the bushing. Have you seen that before?

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Chuck. 

 

I appreciate your efforts to finish fitting the bare blade out.  If it were me, though, I'd find a good army tsuba/seppa set, as the rest of the gunto fittings are all army.  Army had some black colored saya as well.

 

I'm puzzled that the black paint simply comes off with alcohol?  I haven't tried alcohol on original paint before, but I've tried acetone, and original paint really resists coming off with acetone.  Post-war paint comes off much more easily.  Does anyone know if original WWII paint comes off easily with alcohol?

 

The whole thing, like John said, looks like a post-war Bubba slapped a bunch of pieces together.  But if there is bare wood under both ashi, that wouldn't seem to be what I'd expect on a Bubba-job, unless Bubba totally stripped an original saya for his re-paint.

 

My leanings are toward a Bubba-job, but with real WWII parts.

[lambo35]

Bruce, John, this set-up is a Bubba put together, I am the guilty Bubba. I was told the blade/saya combo were original to each other. The Tsuba/Di-seppa fit with each other and fit the blade with no fitting necessary. I knew the Tsuka was not correct and was Army, but it was gifted to me, so I fit and mounted it to the Nakago. I feel pretty confident that the parts that fit each other were for/from an incomplete war time Navy sword [s] that never made it totally together during WW2 and was, in all probability, assembled as a souvenir and came to the U.S. as such. Now to find a complete Navy Tsuka.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Chuck, I could gather the other parts were added by you. Considering the saya isn't specifically original to the blade, there is no harm in assembling something more accurate for your enjoyment!

[Dave R]

Speaking as a well known sinner in this area, I would keep to the Shin-Gunto theme. A lot of the wooden saya for the Army were black, because they were going under field covers, so the colour didn't really matter. Stainless blades are also found in IJA mounts, and Ohmura   http://ohmura-study.net/900.html has something to say about that.

 

 You will have your work cut out to find a genuine/decent IJN Tsuka, whereas nice original Army Tsuba are relatively easy and affordable.