Can someone help me find out/Translate the tang on my late fathers sword please

[Kiipu]

I thought @george trotter, @Bazza, @mecox, & other forumites, would appreciate and enjoy reading this partial summary written by Nick about the book 軍刀組合始末: 陸軍受命刀匠の周辺.

 

Quote

The latter half consists of family profiles of the RJT smiths largely based on interviews.  Interesting episodes like a smith solicited by both the army and navy, using different trade names depending on who the customer was.  Smiths could make good money selling to antique dealers, as an “under the table” source of income besides the military, so smiths applied false names as Mei on these black market supplies.  Thus identical swords made by the same smith could have a different Mei.

Rikugun Jumei Tosho (RJT) Star Stamped Blades - Documentation?, Post #45

[george trotter]

Very interesting Thomas.

I have the book on RJT of Aizu and a sword by one of the Fukushima RJT smiths mentioned in it (Tsukamoto Masakazu - no star - 17/4 Apr. 1942) as being from a farm tool making family. He did study under his brother Tsukamoto Okimasa and Kasama Shigetsugu.

Thomas I am sure many RJT smiths started out on their sword careers as farm tool guys etc, but I don't think the RJT scheme actually trained them...they were already smiths...they had to apply to join with examples of their work before being accepted or rejected. Those that passed became RJT. My guy Masakazu began his training around 1934-37 and by 1941 was back in Fukushima and was made RJT while there in mid-1942?  I am sure many  "strange" things happened in the official sword making system...."different" names, sell "on the side", etc, etc. but such things were "against the RJT rules".

Reading through Nick's post, all 3 books substantially confirm that the RJT blade made "in the system" using "army tamahagane" will pass inspection and be given the star stamp. This star is (it seems) tamahagane confirmation/RJT made confirmation/ RJT quality control confirmation...so a "good thing" and yes...also army materiel confirmation.

Yes, the star stamp is seen on many things, guns, spades etc, etc, but (to the best of my knowledge) only on RJT 'passed inspection' swords.  Maybe an NCO sword owner can tell us if these also have army materiel star stamps on them?

All the private sword making companies had their own inspection/makers stamp .

 

Anyway, while it is possible that one of these dodgy makers made a copy of a shintoKaneyoshi blade...I'd be interested to know your opinion of Matt's blade's period?

Regards,

[Bazza]

In correcting my earlier entry I've just remembered another juicy tidbit.  Some 20 or so years ago a polisher visited Melbourne under the auspices of a noted lady dealer in Japanese arts.  He was a third generation togishi and his grandfather was taught by the Hon'ami of the day.  He asked for a sword to be used as a polishing demo sword and I proffered my Yasukuni (Kotani) Yasunori, which really did need a polish.  As work progressed on the blade (up to the 5th stone if I remember correctly) he commented that he thought the blade was youtetsu - factory steel.  I'm guessing he had never seen a Yasukunitou or knew anything about them.  FWIW (who the hell am I!!!) I politely disagreed and told him a little about them.

 

BaZZa.

[george trotter]

Hi Bazza,

I'm sure you are right...I can remember Japan in the 1980s and visiting Japanese 'experts' visiting over  here over the years getting things "wrong". about good WWII gendaito..simply because they had no idea about the quality swords of the WWII period. In fact, the WWII corner was something most of them would not wander in to.

Geo.

[Matting2]

Welcome Matt. I started my journey the same way. 2 inherited Nihonto from my parents passing. Just a warning, I now have 5 of them and that collection will continue to grow. There are great people here. I have learned so much about my new collection. Enjoy the ride. 

 

Mark

[Kiipu]

14 hours ago, george trotter said:

Yes, the star stamp is seen on many things, guns, spades etc, etc, but (to the best of my knowledge) only on RJT 'passed inspection' swords.

 

Yes, only on RJT blades and on some it will be the only marking while on others there will be additional inspection marks.  I think there was some flux over time on how they went about the markings and then when you factor in the different arsenals involved and how they went about it.

 

14 hours ago, george trotter said:

Maybe an NCO sword owner can tell us if these also have army materiel star stamps on them?

 

I have not seen one via photographs and then again I have never disassembled one either.  It is atypical to break down a NCO for inspection.  With that said, I have seen over a dozen via illustrations and none have had a star stamp.  However, I will call in the cavalry just in case I am wrong!

@Shamsy & @Stegel

 

14 hours ago, george trotter said:

I'd be interested to know your opinion of Matt's blade's period?

 

Stepping outside of my comfort zone but the tang does have a layer of oxidization that can be seen on the 松 closeups.  The initial pictures seemed to show a newly made blade but the closeups clearly showed the oxidization.  Is this layer what one would expect on an older blade?  Is it possible to match up the 兼賀 inscription with a known Kaneyoshi to narrow down which one used this variation and compare blade shapes?  Some days ago I located a couple but there was no match as to the style of inscription.  Until then, I am taking the better part valor and sitting on the fence!

 

As the old saying goes, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!

[Stegel]

On 1/10/2022 at 3:21 PM, george trotter said:

Maybe an NCO sword owner can tell us if these also have army materiel star stamps on them?

I have a few of these and i haven't seen any with Star stamps at all, lots of other stamps, but not these.

[Bruce Pennington]

The steels mentioned in Nick's discussion of the star stamp weren't standard, every day steel.  They were tamahagane and "bullet proof" steel.  Don't recall if others were mentioned.  My impression is that the steels gathered and distributed by the Army, thus receiving the stamp, were special, hard to come by, material.  So I wouldn't expect the steel used in Type 95s to fall into this category.

[george trotter]

Thanks all for the comments....much appreciated.

If I have understood the replies:

The star stamp only appears on RJT blades - this is as we RJT collectors knew.

No example of a showa era Kaneyoshi blade is known.

 

I am prepared to stick my neck out here (not having Matt's sword in hand) and say that this blade does not seem showa era to me. 

I FEEL this blade is an old shinto/shinshinto blade - possibly the 1780-1804  late Shinto - early Shinshinto Kaneyoshi smith listed by Stephen.

I think it is the first non-WWII blade I have seen in RS mounts.

I say this as:

(1) the blade is virtually straight.

(2) the tang is short and stubby, with 1 hole

(3) the tang is undated

(4) while the tang edges -  yasuri, mei and mekugi ana are fairly 'crisp' I do not think WWII era crisp...more 1780s era crisp (IMHO).

IMHO this is just not the sort of gendaito or showato blade usually seen in RS mounts...have a look at the pics...I'd like to hear members' opinions - maybe some more examples? and if I am wrong I would like to know.

Regards to all...

 

[Apollox]

sorry guys was off line for a while I will try to answer everyone as soon as possible, I'll also do some measurements and post asap. again sorry for the lack of replies.

 

Matt

[Apollox]

more photos and measurements

 

 

 

 

 

[Apollox]

George, can you put me in touch with a member from Victoria? where I can take the sword too?

[george trotter]

Hi Matt,

Bazza in Victoria just told me has seen your query and has contacted you...so all good.

Thanks for those additional photos...from them it looks like your tang is 19.5 cm long (7 3/4 in) and your blade is 70 cm long (27 1/2 in).

So, your tang seems about normal length (not stubby as I said) and your blade is a bit longer than normally found in RS mounts.

I still think it is pre-gendai, but will have to wait for educated assessment.

I also noticed that the same (rayskin) on the hilt looks like yellowed cellulose?

Interesting discussion...keep us in the loop Matt.

Regards,

PS can you tell us where your dad served? May be a clue as to where this was surrendered.

[Apollox]

Hi George,

My father was not in the military. He was a very well known Second hand dealer within Victoria, He dealt in just about everything and anything. He purchased this sword from  repossession sale from the Victorian Sheriff, this item a several other items were repossessed, apparently there were 4-5 of these same style swords of different sizes at the time, but my father was only able to purchase one of them.

 

Will keep you all informed of anything more I find out

 

Matt