Can someone help me find out/Translate the tang on my late fathers sword please

[Apollox]

My father past away 18moths ago. I have his Sword which he has had since I can remember as a little boy  40+ years ago. I just want to get as much information about it as possible.

 

Thank you all in advance for your help

 

Regards

 

Matt

 

 

[Ray Singer]

This appears to be a WWII era blade in type 3 koshirae signed Kaneyoshi. 

 

http://ohmura-study.net/952.html

[george trotter]

Hi Matt, welcome to the NMB.

Your sword looks to be of good, handmade, WWII quality.

Bit hard to read the signature (may be Kaneyoshi as Ray said - he's got better eyes than me) Maybe take a clearer pic of the signature? (is there a star stamped just above the signature?)

Also take a pic of the date on the other side (if there is one?). Is there a number stamped near the 'circle' stamp? These circle stamps usually have the character 'matsu' (pine) in the centre - probably put there by the mounting shop.

Looks interesting,

Regards, George

(I'm in WA).

[uwe]

Welcome Matt!
 

Ray is right George.  It’s a well carved “兼賀”!

[Brian]

Good sword, traditionally made wartime sword. Always decent demand for them.

[george trotter]

OK, thanks guys,  Kaneyoshi...good. Be interested in the date, star, stamps etc.

Regards,

[vajo]

Good sword Matt. Please care for it and oil the blade and the iron fittings with camelia or choji oil to preserve it.

The fittings look nice.

Japanese Choji Oil for Iaito/Shinken maintenance (seidoshop.com)

Camellia Oil for Wooden Weapons - Bokken Maintenance (seidoshop.com)

[Bruce Pennington]

Matt,

I'm waiting to see if there is a star stamp at the top also.

 

In the meantime,

8 hours ago, uwe said:

賀

Uwe,

To my horribly untrained eye, I don't see this kanji used in the 3 examples in Slough, or the 2 shown on Japaneseswordindex.  I have heard of smiths changing their kanji over time.  Do you think this might be the case here?  Or is it the case where there can be 5 or 6 different smiths going by the same art name?

[uwe]

I have currently no answer Bruce. Guess we have to dig a bit….

[Apollox]

I've taken some more photo's as best I can. There is a round stamp at the top of the tang, which I can not make anything out.

 

I know I shouldn't try to clean it to try an get a clearer image, but is there anything I can do to be able to see what this stamp is (maybe talc powder or something similar) 

 

Regards

 

Matt

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Andy, yes talc will work. In this case it does appear it wasn't struck particularly well to begin with an the natural oxidization and gunk has obscured it further. A very nice sword and a good family heirloom.

[Apollox]

More photos with tac powder

 

Regards

 

Matt

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

So.  The plot thickens.  I'm fairly certain that is a Matsu stamp:

 

I don't see evidence of a number, although corrosion could have destroyed them.

 

Making this more interesting, if it is a Matsu stamp, is that the majority of Matsu stamps have been found on blades made in the Niigata prefecture.  We have 2 recorded from neighboring Nagano, and now this one from either: Aichi, Mino, Dewa province (which back then included Yamagata), Yamagata, or Gifu, which is where the known Kaneyoshi smiths operated from.  As you can see, they all neighbor Niigata and Nagano, so I'm starting to think this stamp was an Army stamp used for certain areas, like the katakana stamps we see with numbers.  @george trotter - thoughts?

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce, thanks for putting this together.

I does look to me that this is a Matsu stamp....a mountings shop ID stamp? from that area.

I think, from the photos supplied by Matt that this blade has:

1. no star stamp

2. no date

3. one hole

4. is in RS mounts.

 

I think this info and the photos themselves seem to show this is not a war-time made blade, but a pretty straight bladed, short tanged, probably Mino Province shinshinto blade with some age on the tang that has been mounted in RS mounts in WWII. The mounting shop did this private order job and put their shop stamp on the tang. The blade shape etc, and tang file marks, shape and nakago jiri  looks to me to likely be one of the Mino Kaneyoshi smiths, possibly of 1781 see Hawley Revised 1981 KAN 3093 p.244. None of my books have an oshi of these smiths or I would post it.

 

(If I am correct) this is probably the first non-gendaito/showato blade we have seen in these mounts. 

I always thought it likely that one would show up one day....this is it? 

I'd be interested in members thoughts....don't be shy, if I am wrong, just say so...

Regards,

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, that’s a twist in the plot I didn’t see coming!  Great observations about the older blade in the RS fittings.  You may also be swaying me in your direction of the stamp being a shop logo, as military stamps are not found at that end of the nakago.  

[Stephen]

KANEYOSHI (兼賀), Eikyō (永享, 1429-1441), Mino – “Kaneyoshi” (兼賀), according to tradition the son of Waksa Gorō Sadamitsu (貞光)

KANEYOSHI (兼賀), Bunmei (文明, 1469-1487), Mino – “Kaneyoshi” (兼賀), he lived in Seki

KANEYOSHI (兼賀) → TOSHINORI (寿格), Kansei (寛政, 1789-1801), Inaba/Edo

[Bruce Pennington]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

KANEYOSHI (兼賀

And that would explain the use of a different kanji than I was seeing in the wartime smiths.

[george trotter]

23 hours ago, Stephen said:

KANEYOSHI (兼賀), Eikyō (永享, 1429-1441), Mino – “Kaneyoshi” (兼賀), according to tradition the son of Waksa Gorō Sadamitsu (貞光)

KANEYOSHI (兼賀), Bunmei (文明, 1469-1487), Mino – “Kaneyoshi” (兼賀), he lived in Seki

KANEYOSHI (兼賀) → TOSHINORI (寿格), Kansei (寛政, 1789-1801), Inaba/Edo

Yes Stephen, those are the only ones with these two kanji I could find...probaby the last one?

I think Matt needs to carefully photograph a gently cleaned blade (give us measurements too) so that maybe some of our "non-WWII gendai addicted" members can give us an opinion on whether this is an older Mino blade re-used for WWII.

When you think about it....we see many old blades in Type 98 mounts, so why not a few in RS? BTW this is the first time I have seen a Matsu (if it is Matsu) by itself with no 'tally" number stamped in - but it does have 'tally number' 18  in red paint...so sort of "fits the rules"?

So, Matt, I see you are in Australia...wonder if you can check and try to meet up with an NMB member nearby? to get a proper assessment of this blade. (I am in WA).

 

Bruce, as you might remember...I have two blades by Yamagami Munetoshi of Niigata. Both have a tang number but only the later one has the Matsu stamp.

16/9             308

18/5 matsu 1080

 This Matsu by itself (unless '18' in red paint is the tally number of that shop at that time - later stamped numbers?) will take a dedicated detective like you to see if any more are known.

Regards,

 

[george trotter]

A week has passed since this was posted, so I have to ask....what happened to this thread? Not another peep out of anyone.

I thought this would be an interesting topic...the FIRST? pre-gendaito/showato blade seen in RS mounts (look how straight it is!).

I thought this would get members digging through their collections to show us other examples of undated, one hole, pre-WWII blades.

I know this is the first one I have seen in RS...but I could be wrong...I thought this would be something we would discuss?

Regards

[Bruce Pennington]

Matt,

We neglected to fully discuss the style sword you have, in our chasing down the smith.  Your fittings are from a contingency modification to the Type 98 Japanese officer sword.  Type 98s were fairly expensive, and officers had to buy their own swords.  So the contingency model, or Rinji seishiki (RS), or for years incorrectly called the 1944 model (designed in 1938 and produced in numbers by 1940), and Type 3 (Type designations were ordered by the Emperor, and this was never established as a "Type") was created to be cheaper, yet had modifications that made it a hardier sword.  The lacquered ito (handle wrap) and simpler fittings made it able to "take a licking and keep on ticking".  Not popular until around '43/'44, then we see a lot of higher-end, upgraded RS like yours with fully traditionally made blades.  Most blades in the RS fittings weren't traditionally made, called showato, but the blades in the upgraded fittings are almost always traditional, called nihonto. 

 

Many officers brought family blades to the war and had them refitted in military koshirae, and many were donated to the war, or bought up by the military and sold in markets and/or private shops.  Yours is the first old/family blade we've seen in the RS fittings.  So it's pretty unique.

 

You can read about the history of these here:

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/deflating-another-myth-type-3-army-officer-s-sword-expanded-version-584796/

and

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/unveiling-rinjiseishiki-sword-1940-a-793016/

 

This one discusses the program to get family blades for the military and the sword shortage that made it necessary:

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/family-short-blades-gunto-688110/

[george trotter]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Matt,

We neglected to fully discuss the style sword you have, in our chasing down the smith.  

 

Many officers brought family blades to the war and had them refitted in military koshirae, and many were donated to the war, or bought up by the military and sold in markets and/or private shops.  Yours is the first old/family blade we've seen in the RS fittings.  So it's pretty unique.

 

Great stuff Bruce.

I sure would like Matt to provide clearer blade OA and other photos as, like you say, I too think this is the first old family blade seen in RS mounts.

Be good to hear from members also...have I/we got this wrong?...any more out there?

Regards,

[mecox]

George and Bruce, interesting questions, the mei does seem to be Kaneyoshi, but that is unusual "yoshi"  賀  and also read "ga" or "ka"  .  Its also in the province name of Kaga 加賀.  Maybe a coincidence but this blade looks very much like Kaga (Kashu 加州) work of Kanewaka school who came from Mino, but around 3rd gen e.g. early 1700's.  (some of them also then went to Owari).  Note the nakago which looks ubu, has yasurime (taka no ha) and jiri (kata-yamagata), but also the hamon looks like irregular gunome midare with various small choji (flashy styles popular at that time).  But I cant find a record of such a smith. 

 

Here's a later wild card:  Mino no Kami Fujiwara Toshinori (1740-1810) real name was Hamabe Gonzaemon, his initial mei was this Kaneyoshi, he move to Inaba (Tottori) and when he received a title in 1785 (Mino no Kami) changed his mei to Toshinori.  Early he also did hamon with narrow irregular choji.  This may be way off, but it is an interesting story!

[Kiipu]

It seems there was a gendaitō swordsmith that used the mei 兼賀.  An Internet search yielded the following quote that appeared on page 196 from a 1981 book entitled 日本刀銘鑑 [Nihontō meikan], 第3版 [3rd edition], by 本間･薫山 & ‎石井･昌國 [Honma & Ishii].  Does anyone have a copy of this book?

 

Edited the quote to align with the picture provided below.

 

Quote

口「越中回吉川村住右平兼義作之 _ 慶心越中(範覽·刀死)「年紀」慶底心二。

口「兼義」河合義文村。四三歲(昭找)陸軍受命刀工。昭和岐阜。(陸軍)

兼賀分打上」

○「兼賀閱。貞光子。永享 1 方。美濃。(大全·集錄·備考·校正·名集·見出·濃銘)

Edited January 5, 2022 by Kiipu

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Everything about this sword . other than the mei which is well cut and looks old , points to this being a showa or gendai blade .

Ian brooks

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Everything about this sword . other than the mei which is well cut and looks old , points to this being a showa or gendai blade .

Ian brooks

And even the old look of the mei could simply be the same environmental effects that corroded the whole gunto.  Just look at the tsuba and other metal fittings.  This looks like it spent a few years in the swamp.  I don't see layers of patina on the nakago, but rather a single layer of heavy oxidation. 

 

I have seen a number of late-war smith names that were taken from old famous smiths.  It would not surprise me if this blade was a showa era blade.  I agree the straight sori hearkens to an older era, but didn't many smiths adopt older styles?  I am the absolute wrong guy to be talking kantei on blades, so ignore all of this if I'm off-base; but it would make more sense to me to be a gendaito with the matsu stamp on the end.

[george trotter]

Thomas, here is page 196...there are two examples of that Kaneyoshi mei listed...the circle indicator says they are both koto smiths, mid 1400s both Seki/Mino....the info is included in the page you quote from but the quote seems a bit mixed up? This page copy should help clear this smith period thing up.

 

Ian...I felt the blade was not gendaito, that is why I "pushed" this issue...but I am always prepared to be corrected. Maybe the owner Matt can provide more pics? and maybe contact a fellow Aussie collector (or vice versa) and have it looked at?

 

Regards,

[Kiipu]

Thanks for the update and I stand corrected.  The entries of interest are to the right of 兼賀 and thus apply to a different swordsmith.  Back to square one as to the swordsmith and his era.

[george trotter]

Yes Thomas, all clear now..

So, love to hear from members on their koto blades in RS mounts......

Regards,

 

Edit to add some thing I didn't mention about that page 196.

This is that reading left after the two 'circle' (indicates Koto) Kaneyoshi koto 1400s smiths is a third Kaneyoshi smith with these kanji.

This third is the 'triangle' (indicates Shinto) Kaneyoshi shinto mid-1700s smith - the third Kaneyoshi of these kanji.

Stephen posted them above in English, this is just to clarify that they are the same info, just in different books.

[Bazza]

Bruce Pennington wrote:
I have seen a number of late-war smith names that were taken from old famous smiths.  It would not surprise me if this blade was a showa era blade.  I agree the straight sori hearkens to an older era, but didn't many smiths adopt older styles?  I am the absolute wrong guy to be talking kantei on blades, so ignore all of this if I'm off-base; but it would make more sense to me to be a gendaito with the matsu stamp on the end.

 

Agreed.  I have seen at least two that I remember:

**  (KIKU) MONDO no SHO MASAKIYO.

** Another one I can't remember, but the translated name in Hawley was a 17th century smith.

This was decades ago and I puzzled over these two swords, but in the end concluded both blades were Showa.

 

BaZZa.

 

**  (KIKU) MONDO no SHO MASAKIYO.

KIKU!!!!  What am I talking about??  A single AOI leaf for MASAKIYO

Edited January 10, 2022 by Bazza
Correction

[george trotter]

Interesting Baz,

 

Wish Matt (if you are reading this) would get in touch with an Aussie collector and get your sword looked at.

 

Regards,