Australian sword laws, Victoria in particular, do they apply to broken blades?

[Wooper58]

Hi everyone, I live in Victoria, Australia and am new to nihonto.
 

I understand the strict laws we have here regarding importing blades, and was wondering if they applied to broken blades as well?

 

I am looking to purchase a blade which includes the tang and about a sixth of the bladed portion of the sword, to fit into a set of koshirae I own.

 

Would this still count as a sword, and thus would it be prohibited to import? Included is a picture of the blade in question.
 

Thank you

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm not in Australia, but I have shipped several swords to guys there.  What restrictions are you referring to?

[Stephen]

Nice camp knife....good luck.

 

BTW its not a sword anymore so should be labeled as such.

[Lareon]

In the uk there is an exemption for traditionally made Japanese swords or Japanese swords made before 1945, is there a similar exemption?

[Wooper58]

Thanks for the quick replies! The restrictions are stated as follows:

In Victoria, swords are prohibited weapons and may only be imported by people possessing a Weapons Custom Import Permit, and may only be owned by those possessing a Chief Commissioner’s Prohibited Weapons Permit. If you want to import and own a sword, both are needed.

 

A copy of a current membership card to a recognised Collector’s
Organisation will be required, as well as evidence that I am a genuine collector that will not use said weapon.

 

My question is regarding the state of the blade, if it is not considered a sword anymore would it still be exempt to these restrictions? Or is it now closer to a dagger (which would be prohibited to import and own entirely).

 

Thanks everyone

[Lareon]

well it's clearly not a dagger, its questionable whether its even a sword at this point and more of a curio/antique. 

not sure anyone is going to be able to give you a definitive answer on the legal side of this.

 

do you have someone outside of victoria you could import it to? then just have them mail it to you? you get round the importing aspect then

looks like you'll still need to be a member of a registered collectors club, but that probably isn't difficult.

[Alex A]

57 minutes ago, Wooper58 said:

 

In Victoria, swords are prohibited weapons and may only be imported by people possessing a Weapons Custom Import Permit, and may only be owned by those possessing a Chief Commissioner’s Prohibited Weapons Permit. If you want to import and own a sword, both are needed.

 

 

 

 

 

Jeez, thought UK was a total Nancy State, but now know it could be worse

[Lareon]

3 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Jeez, thought UK was a total Nancy State, but now know it could be worse

the worst part about importing into the uk is parcelforce, i hate them with a vengeance

[Alex A]

Agree tony, they can be a pain at times

 

Use Ups if ever possible

[Shugyosha]

1 hour ago, Wooper58 said:

Thanks for the quick replies! The restrictions are stated as follows:

In Victoria, swords are prohibited weapons and may only be imported by people possessing a Weapons Custom Import Permit, and may only be owned by those possessing a Chief Commissioner’s Prohibited Weapons Permit. If you want to import and own a sword, both are needed.

 

A copy of a current membership card to a recognised Collector’s
Organisation will be required, as well as evidence that I am a genuine collector that will not use said weapon.

 

My question is regarding the state of the blade, if it is not considered a sword anymore would it still be exempt to these restrictions? Or is it now closer to a dagger (which would be prohibited to import and own entirely).

 

Thanks everyone

How do these regulations define “sword”? In the UK it has to be over 60cm of cutting edge to be caught by the regulations so there might be some help there. I’m certain there are a couple of Victorian collectors on here so they may well be able to help. 

[Wooper58]

54 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Jeez, thought UK was a total Nancy State, but now know it could be worse

This applies only to Victoria as well, none of the other aussie states are this strict

[Wooper58]

38 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

How do these regulations define “sword”? In the UK it has to be over 60cm of cutting edge to be caught by the regulations so there might be some help there. I’m certain there are a couple of Victorian collectors on here so they may well be able to help. 

Good catch! I’ll look into it further, hoping to see some Victorian collectors share their thoughts.

[Wooper58]

40 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

How do these regulations define “sword”? In the UK it has to be over 60cm of cutting edge to be caught by the regulations so there might be some help there. I’m certain there are a couple of Victorian collectors on here so they may well be able to help. 

It seems that the definition for a sword here doesn’t involve length of the cutting edge… it is defined “as being a thrusting, striking or cutting weapon with a long blade having 1 or 2 edges and a hilt or handle. A sword is still classified as a sword even if the 1 or both blades are blunt.” This is according to the Victorian prohibited weapons list.

[Lareon]

4 minutes ago, Wooper58 said:

It seems that the definition for a sword here doesn’t involve length of the cutting edge… it is defined “as being a thrusting, striking or cutting weapon with a long blade having 1 or 2 edges and a hilt or handle. A sword is still classified as a sword even if the 1 or both blades are blunt.” This is according to the Victorian prohibited weapons list.

you can argue it has no hilt and no handle, it isn't long although long is a vague term.

 

is it still a sword in spirit? maybe but now we're getting into metaphysics and a ship of theseus scenario

[Brian]

Bureaucrats will ALWAYS choose the easy option. Meaning any guy in customs is going to call it a sword and ask you to prove it isn't. I suspect you are fighting a losing battle.
You can't pay me enough to live in Victoria...sorry. I'll bear the crime and corruption here before I allow them to control me like that.

[Alex A]

Best i can think of is describe it as “old tuna knife chopper” and hope for the best.

 

Who knows, might of been haha

 

[Wooper58]

It only gets better from here…

 

Apparently the blade has to be locked up in a safe (gun safe or similar) or it has to be in a glass display that has 5mm thick glass and locked.

 

Maybe I’ll buy a fish tank to store it in too…

[Alex A]

Feel for you Chris, im hoping similar idiots dont get in charge here

[robinalexander]

 

3 hours ago, Wooper58 said:

Maybe I’ll buy a fish tank to store it in too…

 

 

Chris would that make it a swordfish? 

 

 

But seriously, this is my view.

 

1. by definition, it is not a sword (it used to be, but no longer is)

2. the [public safety] intention of the legislation appears to be pretty clear in that it seeks to restrict the import of "‘A thrusting, striking or cutting weapon with a long blade (blunt or otherwise), having one or two edges and a hilt or handle.’ ....the first qualifying wording being "with a long blade".....and this does not. 

3. 'with a long blade'....."having two edges' ....'and a hilt or handle'.  These conditions are not mutually exclusive. That is,  a sword would need to have all of these things in order for it to be considered 'a sword'.  Again, yours clearly does not qualify as a sword.

 

As to whether it would be restricted from import and/or ownership as a 'dangerous weapon' is anyone's guess and that would require a more detailed look at Victorian legislation.

 

I imagine ownership/transport would be a matter for the Victorian Police (State) and import is a matter for Australian Customs (Federal) and you may never come out the other side of enquiries there. 

 

Based on the above, I know many people (me included) would simply buy it.  However, if you are that worried about it, I would be happy to receive it for you in NSW and post it on to you needless to say that that may be technically illegal  but I'm quite comfortable with it.

 

If you wish to do that, just PM me.

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Sorry mate, we think we’re over-regulated but it’s a different world down under. As you haven’t spent the money yet, have you thought of having a wooden tsunagi made to keep the fittings together? 
 

Alternatively, you can get one ready made here fairly cheaply. A bit of whittling might get you a better fit than with a metal piece. Not as attractive but not going to give you much grief with the law. Scroll down this page: https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_antique.html

 

[Wooper58]

4 hours ago, robinalexander said:

 

 

 

Chris would that make it a swordfish? 

 

 

But seriously, this is my view.

 

1. by definition, it is not a sword (it used to be, but no longer is)

2. the [public safety] intention of the legislation appears to be pretty clear in that it seeks to restrict the import of "‘A thrusting, striking or cutting weapon with a long blade (blunt or otherwise), having one or two edges and a hilt or handle.’ ....the first qualifying wording being "with a long blade".....and this does not. 

3. 'with a long blade'....."having two edges' ....'and a hilt or handle'.  These conditions are not mutually exclusive. That is,  a sword would need to have all of these things in order for it to be considered 'a sword'.  Again, yours clearly does not qualify as a sword.

 

As to whether it would be restricted from import and/or ownership as a 'dangerous weapon' is anyone's guess and that would require a more detailed look at Victorian legislation.

 

I imagine ownership/transport would be a matter for the Victorian Police (State) and import is a matter for Australian Customs (Federal) and you may never come out the other side of enquiries there. 

 

Based on the above, I know many people (me included) would simply buy it.  However, if you are that worried about it, I would be happy to receive it for you in NSW and post it on to you needless to say that that may be technically illegal  but I'm quite comfortable with it.

 

If you wish to do that, just PM me.

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

Thanks Rob, I really appreciate the offer.

My thoughts are that if I am going to go this far to get it (which would mean having to pay for both the collector’s guild membership and chief commissioner’s permit anyway) I might as well look for a whole blade instead.

 

I was just wondering if it would fall under a curiosity/antique rather than a weapon, but I suppose that’s just wishful thinking.

[robinalexander]

No worries Chris, anytime.

 

In regard to your question as to whether it would be a " curiosity/antique rather than a weapon", to my mind, it could be classed as either so it comes down to what legislation you gleaned that phrase from and any other related legislation.  That would all need to be fully explored.

 

A more simple way forward may be to have a chat with persons from the Collectors Guild...I imagine they would be able to answer your questions and hopefully happy to help. 

 

We don't have any of these issues in NSW and I have bought swords from dealers and auction in Victoria with no problems but I have noted an auction house requires proof of a licence if you are a Vic resident. 

 

NSW is nice and warm....just move up here! 

Rob

[Wooper58]

5 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

Sorry mate, we think we’re over-regulated but it’s a different world down under. As you haven’t spent the money yet, have you thought of having a wooden tsunagi made to keep the fittings together? 
 

Alternatively, you can get one ready made here fairly cheaply. A bit of whittling might get you a better fit than with a metal piece. Not as attractive but not going to give you much grief with the law. Scroll down this page: https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_antique.html

 

Funny enough, I’ve already made a tsunagi from a pine board 

 

I just wanted to use the ‘real deal’ with the fittings to scratch that itch, kinda like placing in the last piece of a puzzle instead of using a cardboard cutout of the piece.

 

Thanks for the suggestion though!

[mas4t0]

I don't think it should be considered a sword without its tip, but best to check with whoever makes the decision. It doesn't look like a sword and if it's not labelled as a sword, nobody will know that it ever was a sword. I'm with Stephen on this being a camping knife or maybe even a gardening tool.

 

I think the real question is; would someone who doesn't know what this is realise it's a broken sword if the word "sword" was never mentioned? I'd be inclined to ask some friends what they think it is and see what kind of answers you get.

 

I've had an experience of this kind of thing in the UK, and it's not so much the law that matters as the view of the agent you deal with. The specifics of the law don't necessarily matter unless the agent makes the wrong call and you challenge the decision in court.

 

My main point being that it's not really our take on if it's a sword that matters, its the take off an Aussie bloke who doesn't know swords. It's not a semantic, philosophical or legal question; its a question of what its identified as by someone entirely ignorant to what they're seeing.

[Alex A]

Not a sword anymore, more like a chefs type knife, although if you plan on holding a koshirae together with it then i suppose it adds another argument

 

I would just get the permit and do without the worry.

 

 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Chris , have a look at the Control of Weapons Regulations 2011 , which are on line and also at the Vic Police Control of weapons site . This doesn't fit the definition of a sword any longer . It is probably now a knife, which from memory, is a controlled weapon ( as opposed to a prohibited weapon ) . You can possess this without a licence provided you have a lawful excuse ie to scale fish ,use in the kitchen or to hold a koshirae together . It falls into the same category as your Wiltshire stay sharp knife.

Ian Brooks

[Wooper58]

5 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Hi Chris , have a look at the Control of Weapons Regulations 2011 , which are on line and also at the Vic Police Control of weapons site . This doesn't fit the definition of a sword any longer . It is probably now a knife, which from memory, is a controlled weapon ( as opposed to a prohibited weapon ) . You can possess this without a licence provided you have a lawful excuse ie to scale fish ,use in the kitchen or to hold a koshirae together . It falls into the same category as your Wiltshire stay sharp knife.

Ian Brooks

Great catch Ian! According to the Control of Weapons Act 1990, a controlled weapon is partly defined as “a knife, other than a knife that is a
prohibited weapon”, which this falls under.

 

My only concern is regarding the lawful excuse, is it safe to assume that “holding koshirae together” or “holding seperate sword fittings together” will be understood properly to someone unfamiliar to nihonto? I don’t think it could pass as a kitchen knife…

 

The penalty dealt if the lawful excuse isn’t accepted is pretty hefty… 1 year of imprisonment sounds like a baaaaad time. 
 

Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks!

[Lareon]

just be less specific and to be used as part of a display?
 

[Stephen]

Camp wood splitter

[Wooper58]

1 hour ago, Lareon said:

just be less specific and to be used as part of a display?
 

That sounds much simpler and convenient, thanks!