WW2 officer Sword Army or Navy ?

[Nigel]

Hi All,

 

I am new to the Forum and Shin-Gunto , I came across this sword in an online auction and bought it on an impulse buy as I have always loved history

 

It a real Shin-Gunto ? hoping its not a fake or put together !!

 

 I have been looking through your Forum and there are some strange things about it ,  the fittings are Army but the wrap (Ray ?)is Black like they seem to do on some Navy swords , and I think the blade must be Stainless-steel , which I guess would also be a Navy thing to stop them from rusting

 

It’s a shame about the state of the scabbard it has lost all pain /leather , and the blade is not very Sharpe it does look like the edge is bevelled (I have a practical plus Katana and the edge looks very different)  is there anything I can do safely to sharpen a little ?

 

also would like to take it apart but it has a screw in  pin and then end on one side is blocked (see pic) i assume i need a special tool to undo it ?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Nigel, unfortunately this is a chinese replica aka fake. Real examples can be seen here for reference, pay close attention to the fine details of the blade and mounts:

 

http://ohmura-study.net/934.html

 

If possible you should seek a refund if the listing claimed this sword to be an original WWII piece.

[Nigel]

Hi John,

 

thanks for your reply , very sad to hear that !  it was listed as genuine WW2 era  sword could you give me more details as to why  (see pics for fittings detail )

 

this is in the T&C from the auction:

 

return of the lot to enable it to be submitted to an agreed expert or expert committee. NOTE: The onus of proving a lot to be not genuine, or incorrectly described, is on the purchaser. The inability of a recognised expert or an expert committee to express a definite opinion shall serve to discharge the onus on the purchaser and shall be a ground for rejecting the lot concerned. 

anyone know of an expert in the UK i can use ?

 

Nigel 

[Brian]

There is actually nothing there that looks genuine. To someone with no experience yes, but to anyone who had owned one for a while...nope.
The wrap is bad, completely wrong and so is the underlying material. The fittings are poorly cast, and would never be on a genuine one. They are in the correct style yes...but are still way off.
Blade is really poor, all the edges are rounded off, nothing crisp. No hamon to be seen.
Please remove the handle and post the bare tang as that will tell 100%
If it is as bad as expected, then 2 or 3 of the experts on this forum should be sufficient as many of them are subject matter experts.
 

[paul griff]

Hello Nigel,

                   As above ,reproduction 100%.... Type in  on a search engine - WW2 Japanese Officers sword for sale and you will find a photograph of a similar sword ,copy it and send it to the auction house  with these reports and it should be enough.....If not ,report them to their governing body or local trade description officer.....Be careful not to damage ,alter or clean the sword...Best if it is returned untouched in original package.... if possible ? ......If you alter or damage it you are stuck with it ! Good luck..

Best Regards,

                      Paul..

[Nigel]

thanks  for your help i have removed the handle see pics below 

 

i have called the auction house and emailed they are getting someone to call me back 

 

Nigel

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yep, tang confirms it. Chinese fake, worth less than scrap value.

[Nigel]

Hi John,

 

as it looks like a stainless steel blade (other than the lack of any rust how can you tell ) do stainless steel blades also have marks on Tang ? sorry just learning about this at the moment , the rust on the tang seemed to come from a separate thin bit that looked like it was there to keep the handle fit well , do you think its stainless ? and is that also a sign that all is not right with the sword ? trying to gather info before the auction house call me back 

 

i appreciate all your help everyone 

 

Nigel 

[Bruce Pennington]

Nigel,

100% Chinese fake.  Please get your money back.  The blade is one-piece, rolled steel, highly buffed.  I can show you pics of stainless steel nakago & blades, but for now here are some comparisons you can use with the seller:

 

Kabutogane - no legitimate Japanese kabutogane looks like this one:

 

Fuchi - the fakers never get the detail right:

 

Officer swords used bamboo pegs, not screws (Yes the Contingency Model did, but this one is trying to be a Type 98):

 

The nakago (tang) has no shinogi (the line that runs down the length of it), the yasurime (file marks are horrid compared to Japanese work); and the machi (the small notches where the nakago meets the blade) on Japanese swords are aligned (except on NCO blades) and the Chinese copies are always offset:

[Bruce Pennington]

Some stainless examples:

 

[Brian]

Excellent replies Bruce!
I know you love this stuff...how about an article comparing various fake parts with real ones? I think it would come in REAL handy when the fakes pop up. There is certainly a need for a dedicated downloadable file on the subject.

[Nigel]

I have to say thank you all so much for your help , feel a lot happier about it now , i did think there could be issues with it and its been in the back of my head since i collected it 

 

the auction house called me back i explained what you had told me and they agreed to a complete refund

 

,so now i am on the lookout for a another (not fake) Shin-Gunto if you see any good ones available point me in the right directions and this time before i buy i will try and upload some pics 1st to see what you guys think

 

Regards Nigel

 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

Thank you Bruce for the close-ups.

I guess me ol eyes didnt see the details.

My post is deleted.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 minutes ago, Nigel said:

agreed to a complete refund

Great news Nigel!  Good luck on the hunt.  I don't see any WWII military gunto on the For Sale or Trade forum, but it has some other interesting blades posted now.  Another place is the Dealer Showcase.  ebay and auction sites can have some good stuff, but they are LOADED with fakes, so like you said, be sure to bring them here before buying.  And BTW, I still have my bad fake I bought in my early years of collecting!

[Bruce Pennington]

14 minutes ago, Brian said:

an article comparing various fake parts with real ones?

Ok, I'll work on it.  I've been puttering around needing something to do.  I'll likely hit up some of the other guys for tips they look for as well.

[b.hennick]

Bruce you would be providing the details needed to improve the fakes. I worry about being so specific.

[robinalexander]

8 hours ago, b.hennick said:

Bruce you would be providing the details needed to improve the fakes. I worry about being so specific.

Hi Bruce/Brian....I totally agree with Barry.

 

I don't favour a 'fake thread' as I wouldn't like to see NMB become an R & D site for the manufactures of fakes.  I recall this has been resisted in the past by some members.

 

So what benefit could that bring?  Yes it would be handy to be able to flick newbies a link to save them from themselves (and many of us have been there ) and that would be a nice to have …..but.... I just feel it would be at odds with the whole NMB concept. 

 

I am not saying were should stop offering advice on possible fakes as I think its always been handled appropriately (softly softly) but I just wouldn't like to see a dedicated thread that will no doubt keep up to date with the latest fraudulent designs/techniques and publish where they went wrong.  Essentially, telling them how they could improve their next batch of fakes.  

 

Yes, it would certainly be an interesting and readable thread but these days, with the net being what it is, I just think it would be counter productive to the whole idea of collecting, preserving and enjoying authentic Japanese swords and related items.

 

Rob

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

@b.hennick & @robinalexander

 

it is an interesting dilemma. I have always been puzzled by the poor quality of fakes for so many years, except for the particularly good type 95s coming out of Poland these days.  Have they never heard of Ohmura and his website?  They don’t need to study NMB, or anyone’s articles, everything they could possibly need is on that one website. And yet, it’s obvious they don’t use it.  Personally considering the vast amount of information out there, I doubt that one more article would make a difference to them. But I’m open to discussion on the matter. And won’t rush into anything.

[robinalexander]

Yes 'interesting' all right Bruce, no real right or wrong...I know you would do a sterling job at producing an article or more likely a thread that would be added to and updated as time goes on.  I suppose the difference between the Omura site and what has been floated here is that an NMB thread would be a lot more detailed and contemporary.

 

To be or not to be.....that is the question 

 

PS how do you 'grab' a members link as per above and put it in a new message?

[Bruce Pennington]

33 minutes ago, robinalexander said:

'grab' a members link

Rob,

Not sure what you're asking.  Are you asking how to post a @robinalexander notice?  Or are you asking how to grab a link to a particular post like this:

 

[robinalexander]

yep this one ....".Are you asking how to post a @robinalexander notice?"

[Brian]

The idea that fakers need to be taught what to improve on is...I am sorry...laughable.
They just have to grab a Dawson or any online picture search. It's not lack of info that leads to the bad fakes, it's fast and cheap production. I promise you, no faker is waiting for a lesson on how to improve his fakes. More detail costs money, they want cheap. And people already buy their junk anyways.
Really guys...paranoia.

[cju777]

3 hours ago, robinalexander said:

yep this one ....".Are you asking how to post a @robinalexander notice?"

 Rob type “@“ then without a space immediately after, type the user’s account name, ex “robinalexander” it will search and resolve for that person. 

[robinalexander]

Thanks Chris....that will be useful.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The best replicas made by Hanwei cost nearly 1000usd brand new, and those include a proper martial arts grade sword. These can still be spotted a mile away. The fakers are interested in quick nickel and dime profits, not committing to high end replication. A guide to readily, accurately and comprehensively spot fakes will help many new collectors.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, robinalexander said:

that will be useful.

Rob,

After the "@", as you type, you will see a dropdown list of names developing below your typing.  You have to click on the intended name and it turns blue.  If you don't click on it, and simply keep typing the name, it doesn't work, and simply comes out as text like @robinalexander. 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

replicas made by Hanwei cost nearly 1000usd brand new, and those include a proper martial arts grade sword. These can still be spotted a mile away. The fakers are interested in quick nickel and dime profits, not committing to high end replication.

I think this is the heart of it.  The fakers know there will always be enough inexperienced buyers out there to buy their cheaply made products.  They can make 10 X profit with the cheap material/workmanship vs making 10% profit with high-end work.

[ChrisAWilson]

Great reply Bruce!  That's definitely a fake and not a very good one, the cast furniture is really bad, Hope the OP can get his money back if it was sold as a 100% original.  

Chris Wilson