Tsuba with Geometric Shapes

[sword_guy]

Hi All,

 

I recently saw this post on the for sale section of a tsuba that I like many others thought was beautiful:

 

I was looking to learn more about these types of tsuba with tiled geometric patterns. I find them visually striking and am hoping to learn more. Were there any schools that specialized in them? Any patterns that are recurring in these types of designs? Any resources that would be good to check out to get a more in depth knowledge?

Thanks in advance!

[vajo]

Hi Robert search for shippo or shippou tsuba. Its a Japanese traditional textile pattern. I think that this design is called sashiko but i'm not sure.

 

[sword_guy]

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the information! Do you know of any broad term to cover all types of tsubas that have some sort of tiled / repeating geometric pattern? Would that be Sashiko?

Are there many others like this tsuba (in the shippo style or otherwise) or is this a relatively rare type?

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Hi Robert these are relatively common patterned guards [until you want to find one!]

This is an unusually good one with a fukurin [rim cover] https://www.jauce.com/auction/q1024331165 in soft metal, a lot are also signed and have a kao [seal].

Most examples are in Iron. There were three or four that have sold in the last few weeks that I know of [I bought one for 2,000 yen - rusty]

 

I noticed the comments in the other thread on how hard it would be to do that repeated pattern so precisely by hand - multiply that by ten when it is done on iron instead of a soft metal like shakudo or shibuichi!

[RobertM]

 Surely that last tsuba is Eiju seiryuken

[Spartancrest]

Robert, It is only quoting the auction notes that often get scrambled by Google translate - and which are never to be trusted. 

Eiju seiryuken is a much more accurate translation, though the kao is often different.

I have a rusty version on its way from Japan with half the mei obliterated.

Why would you do that? 

 

More examples here:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tsuba-snow-flower-seiryuken-eijyu-291169020

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-Japanese-wakizashi-katana-1890403625

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/Japanese-iron-tsuba-eiju-takase-436170695

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/3683-edo-samurai-sword-elaborate-138649618

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/5053-jp-samurai-sword-shippo-pattern-wakizashi

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-sword-signed-eijyu-tsuba-katana-menuki

Triple set here - https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/3-signed-antique-Japanese-sword-tsuba-fuchi-kashira

You do get the idea they are reasonably common! 

[sword_guy]

Very interesting! It seems like (from your examples and some others I have come across) that Seiryuken Eiju is the primary producer of these tsuba with the second pattern (shippo?).

 

Is that his signature style? Were there others that did the same? If not he must have produced a tremendous amount foe them to still be quite common!

[Spartancrest]

Robert, from what I have seen just doing a google search of his name, he did a wide variety of work often with Dragons and other designs - I think he must have had help from students studying under him and various followers - if not he was a very busy boy! From examples I have seen the signatures are not all the same and certainly the kao's vary, other examples are not signed at all so what are we to make of them?

[sword_guy]

That does seem to be the most plausible story. I have heard this was a very common practice under the masters. Even so still impressive!

 

I have also seen some other patterns like this one which I think is called "Sayagata"

 

So I am presuming there must be others either of other mons repeating (like the Shippo Tsunagi) or other interesting patterns like the one below.

[mas4t0]

A few years ago I spent quite a long time studying a traditional textile pattern tsuba made of copper (in hand), and I would have been willing to bet money that the pattern was created by etching.

 

As it was copper, my guess would have been ferric chloride, but I haven't been able to find any info on if this was known to and used by the Japanese of old.

 

To satiate my curiosity, I later had a goldsmith use this technique to quite deeply etch copper plate to see how it would turn out. I gave away the item to a friend, but I think I still have a photo.

 

Edit to add photos. The commissioned test piece mentioned above is the tsuba and F/K at the top of the first image. More detail is visible in the second image.

 

Edit 2, everything shown in these images is modern. The other fuchi/ kashira were made by Patrick Hastings and the other tsuba is by Jesus Hernandez. They've all now been mounted on shinken/ iaito for martial arts use.

 

[sword_guy]

Etching would be a far easier way to make the patterns but as far as I know it usually doesn't go very deep.

 

Do you know how deep that pattern is on the tsuba you showed?

 

As far as I know in Europe at the same time etching saw significant use even by famous artists like Rembrant. And as it turns out in the late edo period Japan saw the first etching for art by a man named Shiba Kōkan. Who etched in copper. So it was at least known and possible but no idea if it was common.

 

An interesting thought experiment worthy of further research for sure!

[mas4t0]

Thank you for the link Robert.

 

It was somewhere around 1mm deep prior to lacquering, the black is a lacquer as opposed to a patina. It could have been etched deeper if desired.

 

Even at this depth it effectively establishes the design elements and could very much aid the placement of chisels to further deepen and refine the design as needed.

[MauroP]

Hi, I'm afraid the tsuba above is a modern one.
But etching on iron was a well known technique in Edo period. Search for kusarakashi (腐らかし).

[mas4t0]

53 minutes ago, MauroP said:

Hi, I'm afraid the tsuba above is a modern one.
But etching on iron was a well known technique in Edo period. Search for kusarakashi (腐らかし).

 

Hi Mauro,

 

As mentioned in the post, it was commissioned from a goldsmith as a test piece as I was curious to see how etching of a geometric pattern would turn out.

 

Without a time machine I'm not able to commission antiques.

[Spartancrest]

Robert be careful there are many fakes about, especially the 'Manji' pattern - https://www.jauce.com/auction/p1024772972

https://www.shapeways.com/product/CWTNDM5Q5/mokko-tsuba-with-manji-pattern

You can even get them 3D printed in iron!  https://www.shapeways.com/product/MUY24XDDZ/mokko-manji-tsunagi-tsuba-katana?optionId=211261926&li=marketplace

 

Not too sure of this ebay one either. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/254884920806

[sword_guy]

2 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Robert be careful there are many fakes about, especially the 'Manji' pattern - https://www.jauce.com/auction/p1024772972

https://www.shapeways.com/product/CWTNDM5Q5/mokko-tsuba-with-manji-pattern

You can even get them 3D printed in iron!  https://www.shapeways.com/product/MUY24XDDZ/mokko-manji-tsunagi-tsuba-katana?optionId=211261926&li=marketplace

 

Not too sure of this ebay one either. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/254884920806

 

Yeah I think I have seen some that seemed just wrong on ebay (I'm still fairly new so can't articulate why but just a gut feeling).

As an aside a metal 3D printed Tsuba actually seems pretty cool! (even though it's not traditional at all). You could make some very interesting and near impossible patterns (by hand) with 3D printing.

 

Thanks for the link!

[Spartancrest]

Robert, what do you think of Kagome pattern guards or Asanoha? One style that I find attractive is Doshin'en  - concentric circles, from my point of view these must have been very difficult to do.

[vajo]

Here is a good explenation about the patterns.

Traditional Japanese Patterns | Nippon.com

 

This room plays with different patterns

 

 

 

 

[sword_guy]

9 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Robert, what do you think of Kagome pattern guards or Asanoha? One style that I find attractive is Doshin'en  - concentric circles, from my point of view these must have been very difficult to do.

Very impressive! I think personally I am partial to those carved all the way through (although that is of course FAR more labor intensive than a surface level carving), and find those repeating patterns like the Asanoha more appealing. But the precision needed to do numerous concentric circles and the very understated nature of them is definitely attractive.

 

I find the tsuba that are nearly a perfect circle appealing in themselves just for the pure precision and simplicity they have with the knowledge that to do that by hand with a high degree of precision would be quite a challenge. Adding concentric circles amplifies that.

[Spartancrest]

I can't help pasting this one into the thread - https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/423479171214114128/

   WOW!

[Spartancrest]

An update on this post [from above] 

Posted December 8

Robert, It is only quoting the auction notes that often get scrambled by Google translate - and which are never to be trusted. 

Eiju seiryuken is a much more accurate translation, though the kao is often different.

I have a rusty version on its way from Japan with half the mei obliterated.

Why would you do that? 

 

What are the chances of another guard of similar size and also having part of the signature erased on the same side? https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1027079438

The question still remains why? x2

[sword_guy]

Very strange. This one seems to be more ovoid than some of the other similar examples.

Maybe this one is a copy? It does seem like the whole seppa area is pretty worn down.

[Geraint]

Surely more ovoid simply because it's ko-wakizashi/tanto size.

 

All the best.