Brian Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Don't know what to make of this one. Seller appears to know the terminology well, and has gone to great lengths to show they are not stolen pics. Appears to have hada, and the nakago appears real, even if the patina is a bit off. hadori is on the strong side, but I think there is a yakiba there? http://cgi.ebay.com/Auth-old-Japanese-s ... 0313202405 Can't bring myself to believe it is real (hirazukuri katana too) but this isn't your average fake either. I know there are real Nihonto in China (see the Chinese Nihonto forum for proof) but what is this one? Brian Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Temperline a little high up, wonder how it can be that fine without shirasaya or mounting? Maybe a new generation fake, they are optimizing. Actually no ideas, I have to little experience. Try to reflect my first intention. Sorry but I am quite negative to china traders, 100% bad experience yet. Quote
gumanthon Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Hi Brian, This seller had a nihonto for sale before Christmas on Ebay and I was the winning bidder for $50.00 and he then removed the item before the end of the auction. I emailed him and asked him how much he wanted for the item he told me $2500,00 if I wanted to buy it or he would relist it. When he relisted it unfortunately I came 2nd in the bidding but at that time he had only a feedback of 6. It was a beautiful looking modern nihonto excellently photographed and the mei supposedly read kiyo shin shi sada ju saku kore :Heisei 1 nen 5 gatsu (5,1989) 元年（first year of heisei period your guess is as good as mine. Regards John :? Quote
Hermes Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Here's one he sold in his feedback, blade only like the one above, i sure wish i knew the buyer? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0289308833 Quote
gumanthon Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Hi, Yes that is the one I missed out on by one. Yes I do know of the buyer but not personally I believe he deals only in Japanese swords. Regards John. Quote
loiner1965 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 gumanthon said: Hi, Yes that is the one I missed out on by one. Yes I do know of the buyer but not personally I believe he deals only in Japanese swords. Regards John. ryujinswords was the buyer for that sword Quote
reinhard Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Hi Brian, The sword you are wondering about is a fake. Nakago is artificially aged in a very poor way and proportions of the kissaki section give final evidence. Chinese fakers learn quickly and they are capable of producing hada and real hamon by now (which is not exactly witchcraft). Polished properly, these blades can lead you astray easier than the crude fakes made some years ago. Nevertheless, they are of no value whatsoever. reinhard Quote
Nobody Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Hermes said: Here's one he sold in his feedback, blade only like the one above, i sure wish i knew the buyer? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0289308833 The linked page below shows pictures of a katana of the same smith. http://lll.pro.tok2.com/sword/sdata70/gj212b.htm The inscriptions of mei and date on the ebay item look too crude to me. Also the Yasurime is different. Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 So China is still on 100%? I post when this should change. But I think this is kind of natural, when you see through their eyes. The produce even fake BMW under the brand BYD(BuyYourDream)! Quote
Brian Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Posted February 24, 2009 Kevin from Ryujin swords (who is a dealer) bought a sword and posted feedback of "A spectacularly good nihonto. :-D Recommended seller. :-D" Gonna have to ask him what he thinks. If you check the Chinese Nihonto Forum, there ARE swords and collectors there. Maybe not many, but they exist. I can't say for sure what this particular sword is, but this isn't your usual mass produced fake. Reinhard, we all know that the Chinese are capable of producing hamon, hada etc. But that usually comes at a significant cost. There is one thing that I see that doesn't appear totally correct..but won't post that here in case they are producing them and looking for points to correct. Anyways...if anything, a good reason to be more careful and avoid dealing online except with dealers you know. Brian Quote
Guido Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 What an unbelievable coincident: my wife brought back home a flyer today from a shop here in Beijing that's specialized in Japanese arms and armor; she stumbled upon it while being on one of her legendary shopping sprees (much to my and my bank account's displeasure). The owner doesn't speak Japanese, so communication was somewhat limited. Anyhow, looking at their website, flyer, and background of the photos of the eBay listings, it seems to be the same shop. I'll check it out next weekend and will report my findings here. Quote
Brian Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Posted February 24, 2009 Guido! I think you are thisssss close to finding the Holy Grail...genuine Nihonto in China! Good luck, please do let us know. Brian Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Brian said: genuine Nihonto in China! OooooK.... from the picture seems to me to see : 1 chinese falchion 1 strange *possible naginata* (yari in strange mount ?) 1 bone tachi 2 shingunto mounts (what's inside ?) 1 kyugunto (what's inside?) 1 cavalry saber possibly Japanese 1 Quin saber 1 Quin Jian 1 talwar. Remains 4 mounts that might have NihonTo inside... If these are their best, Guido re-location in China have triplicated the number of NihonTo in the country not talking about quality... Quote
Guido Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Brian said: I think you are thisssss close to finding the Holy Grail...Don't hold your breath ... Quote
Mark Green Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Hi Gang, I have seen a number of early Paul Chen swords that looked very much like this one. Folded, with great hamon, still a bit funny on the Nakago. That would be my guess. Mark G Quote
stekemest Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 Agree. It initally looked to me like a modern reproduction with an artifically aged nakago. There is something wrong about the nakago, anyway. Quote
Guido Posted February 28, 2009 Report Posted February 28, 2009 I visited the shop today - I wasn't expecting much anyhow, so there was no real disappointment. It looks nothing like in the flyer (or should I say "teaser"?). On display was one set of modern made mass-produced armor, one battered Shinguntō-Koshirae, one mediocre Uchigatana-Koshirae, and two generic Nara-Tsuba. A girl was attending, and when I asked if they had some swords, she wanted to know what kind I'm interested in. "Sōshū" and "Sōden-Bizen" didn't ring a bell with her, and she only understood what I was talking about when I wrote it down in Japanese. She then asked if I was looking for Tachi or Uchigatana. My excitement grew for a few milliseconds, until she told me that they had neither. Huh, what? My Chinese is light-years from being fluent, but it now started to entirely fail me ... A younger guy walked up who was on his cell phone until then, and to my relief he spoke a few words English. He held a Katana in Shirasya and was very hesitant at first to hand it over to me. Seeing that I knew how to handle and look at it obviously relieved him. The sword hadn't seen a polish in the last 100 or so years. Looked like Naminohira to me, but it turned out that it had an amateurish Shu-mei to Gassan that looked rather new. When he realized my doubts about the attribution, he produced an Origami - issued by a certain Kenkyūkai that has been discussed on this board before . Next was a Bizen Wakizashi (the generic type again), also out of polish, but in a rather nice, period Koshirae that I'm sure would paper. However, the blade was nothing to write home about, and I even didn't remove the Tsuka. That were all the swords they had. I asked for fittings, and experienced the first pleasant surprise: two very nice sets of Menuki, one even published in a Japanese Museum catalog (some provincial museum I never heard about before, but still nice stuff). Unfortunately the price was what one would expect to pay in Japan. The owner - who wasn't present - got a nicely framed certificate as the China representative of above mentioned Kenkyūkai, and it seems they get their stuff from a sword shop in Japan called Shoyodō 昌楊堂. I was told that they can order stuff from there if I'm interested, and they pride themselves that their prices are reasonable, i.e. "the same as in Japan". Well, so much for bargain hunting and lost treasures in China. At least they didn't have any outright fakes, everything was original (and that includes the other antiques they had for sale). There also seems to be a group of sword collectors in Beijing, and "the shop" (no idea how it is pronounced in Chinese, forgot to ask) acts a broker for them, whether they buy or sell. They occasionally meet for some "show and tell", and I'm supposed to attend their next meeting. Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 28, 2009 Report Posted February 28, 2009 Guido, the post looks like from some nihonto-addicted that now miss his daily input of shiny things... :D So, a lot of work to educate them for both of you... Quote
Guido Posted February 28, 2009 Report Posted February 28, 2009 Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini said: Guido, the post looks like from some nihonto-addicted that now miss his daily input of shiny things... :DGuilty as charged! \ said: So' date=' a lot of work to educate them for both of you...[/quote']Both of us? Pssst, they don't know yet about my evil twin ... Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 28, 2009 Report Posted February 28, 2009 I think there's room for profesisonal work for you there, as soon as the language will be no more a barreer. Lots of oppurtunities. You're luky. Quote
Nobody Posted February 28, 2009 Report Posted February 28, 2009 Guido Schiller said: The owner - who wasn't present - got a nicely framed certificate as the China representative of above mentioned Kenkyūkai, and it seems they get their stuff from a sword shop in Japan called Shoyodō 昌楊堂. I was told that they can order stuff from there if I'm interested, and they pride themselves that their prices are reasonable, i.e. "the same as in Japan". Shoyodo (昌楊堂) is a small antique shop in Kyoto. They do not seem to specialize in nihonto. There surely is a link button to the Chinese shop on their home page. Shoyodo: http://www.jin.ne.jp/richo/index.html Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 28, 2009 Report Posted February 28, 2009 Ah, Kyoto, yes. That would explain the owner's choice of shop name. The Kanji Kyo, the capital, which is shared by both Kyoto and Beijing, and Sanjo, a famous street in Kyoto. Quote
Guido Posted February 28, 2009 Report Posted February 28, 2009 Nice catch, Piers! I looked it up in my Chinese character dictionary, and 京三條古美術 = 京三条古美术 = JĪNG-SĀN-TIÁO GŬ-MĔI-SHÙ; at least now we have a name for "the shop" . Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 28, 2009 Report Posted February 28, 2009 I understand Jing for capital. The Antiquities and Fine Arts. I can't understand San Tiao. Three what? Isn't that a counter for long flat things? Three Capitals Antique Fine Arts. They have shops in China, Japan and Taiwan, don't they? The three capitals. Just wondering. Like the jo is a counter for dori in sanjo dori, 3rd street. Or did they drop the Jiedao? John Quote
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