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Posted

Hello all,

 

As some of you might remember, I’ve been looking for an affordable blade made from Namban-tetsu.

Thanks to Stephen I recently found one. It’s the one that was discussed here:

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4605&hilit=kuniyoshi

I’d like to discuss it some more in this post, to check what I think I already know about it,

to find out all I can about it and to find out what I can do to preserve/restore it.

So please tell me what you think and correct me where you think I am wrong.

 

Let me start by posting some pictures:

 

First off, an overall picture; it shows what was shipped to me:

 

As you can see, the saya is not original, the set of seppa is complete, the tsuka-ito is damaged and the blade was shortened

(in a rather crude way, as I will show in more detail later).

Some dimensions: Overall blade: 89cm, Nagasa: 67cm, Sori: 1cm, Width: 3cm near the hamachi, tapering to 2cm near the kissaki, Kasane: 0.65cm

 

Then of course the mei is of interest:

 

As I am told, it reads “Bungo no Kami Fujiwara Kuniyoshi” and “Motte Namban-tetsu tsukuru koro”.

So apparently it was made by Hawley’s KUN 1875 from Settsu province, who was active in 1673, using Namban-tetsu.

 

Another picture of the nakago:

 

The yasurime (filemarks) are just visible here and also the discoloration from the shortening.

Also there are these stripes made by the polisher, which I’ve seen on some other blades.

Can someone tell me more about those? Is it possible to identify the polisher or the age of the polish by them?

 

Another pic of the crude reshaping that was done, I presume to adapt the blade to the gunto mounts:

 

This is one of the few areas in which the hada can be seen, I think because this area is covered by the habaki,

and subsequently the only area that was spared from the buffing that hides most of the hada on the rest of the blade.

Please comment on the discoloration: I presume it is fatal? Or isn’t it, since it is covered by the habaki?

From what is still visible of the hamon in this area, it looks like it ended in suguha near the hamachi originally, or is this the result of the crude reshaping?

 

To be continued...

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Posted

Hi Rob, The suriage looks to be older. The machiokuri or at least reshape of the nakago seems done in modern times by an electric grinder rather than files/stones. The heat bluing being evident. John

Posted

Speaking of hada: can this be a pocket of air in the steel that has been repaired?

If so; it is not done too badly for it is hard to capture. Or is it just loose hada? Impossible to tell by pictures I guess:

 

 

Here’s some more pix of the hamon, as far as I was able to capture it:

 

 

Is this kind of hamon called Gunome-Choji?

 

It may not be very clear from these pictures, but the ji has a definite convex shape (niku?), especially near the ha.

Can I take this as a sign that the blade is quite healthy?

 

To be continued...

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Posted

Hi, Interesting pics the polishing lines do not represent individual polishers though I belive they represent a higher grade of polisher. As you probably realise different polishers apply different numbers of lines but this does not differenciate between them. The effects of being cut down and machine grinded does not effect the blade and only shows the authenticity as what has happened. Although this will probably effect the value of but it is best not to try and lose discolouration this is my humble oppinion I will leave it to others more learned to go further. Regards John.

Posted

In the kissaki area the hamon is only just visible in the right light:

 

 

In the last picture I think you can see the turn back of the boshi.

I understand the different types of boshi have names too; is it possible to tell which type this is?

 

A very faint line on one side is all that is left of the yokote (not visible in the pix).

 

In the monouchi area the shape of the hamon is only visible in the shape of the rust and pitting:

 

I think someone tried to clean the blade here, which resulted in this rust and pitting.

So apparently the hamon area rusts more easily/differently than the non-hardened parts of the blade. I guess this is not surprising.

(This is an enhanced picture btw; it looks more serious than it is in reality; it is very shallow, hardly noticable when you run a nail along it. Fingernail that is ; ))

 

On to the mountings. As I said earlier, there is a complete set of seppa (4 on each side of the tsuba):

 

Someone has already tried cleaning them by sanding. Is it ok to clean them any further? If so; what would be the best way to do this?

Should I try to polish out the marks left by the sanding? Or are they best left as they are now?

As you can see they are all numbered (198), and so are the fuchi and the tsuba. I presume the kashira is numbered accordingly,

but there is no way to tell since it is attached to the tsuka by the ito. Does this number have any meaning or significance?

 

 

To be continued...

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Posted

It sure makes a difference to me. If you want to chop up a showa-to machine made blade, fine, but, not an older blade in this fashion. I don't think Rob did it, the culprit who did is just wrong headed. John

Posted

Can something be said about the tsuba? It’s an open work tsuba; does that tell us anything?

Is it early/rare?

 

 

Here’s the tsuka:

 

On the other side the menuki has been removed by cutting the ito, so this is loose, held together by clear tape now.

 

The top of the tsuka, where the fuchi goes, has some writing:

 

Does this have any significance, or is it possible to tell what is says?

Top right there’s a crack. The tsuka looks restorable to me, the same is not in too bad a condition and the ito needs rewrapping of course.

There is no mekugi and I had some trouble removing the tsuka, so it’s a very tight fit.

Someone before me apparently had the same kind of trouble, but solved it in a less subtle way: the habaki features some dents as a result:

 

I guess it’s a silver plated copper one. It cannot be removed; it doesn’t get past the first mekugi-ana, I think because of the build up of rust there.

 

On the kashira there’s a Myoga mon:

 

Can this be pinned down to a specific family? Does it tell us anything else?

For example: is this a family blade adapted for WWII?

 

To be continued...

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Posted

That leaves us with the saya:

 

Am I correct in assuming it is not original at all? Maybe only the tachi ring-mount is.

Is this detachable? And should this be numbered as the rest of the metal fittings?

There is a label with some writing on the saya. Readable? From a post-war storage depot?

 

There’s a chunk missing from the saya:

 

Is it possible that this was done to be able to see at a glance that there’s a blade in it?

 

To be complete here’s the bottom end of the saya:

 

I suppose there’s no value in the brass fittings on the saya?

 

If I’d want to restore the gunto fittings, would it be possible to find a replacement period saya to go with the original fittings?

 

That’s it for now. I’d really like to read your opinions/suggestions. If anything is unclear I can try taking more/better pictures.

 

@ John & John: Thanks for your lightspeed reactions. I'm sorry I can't go into them now; I'm already late for my downtime.

Please do enjoy the rest of the pictures and do continue commenting on them. I'll have some time later this week, maybe even tomorrow.

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Posted

Rob, I went through a few sources to find the han that mon may belong to. No luck I'm afraid. My opinion is scrap the saya, get the nakago fixed, save the fittings for another use and mount the blade as intended. The WW II tsuba and fittings if, not your cuppa, could be sold to fund the restoration. It's a cobbled together rig and does nothing to enhance the blade. As to the blade itself, a big expense there, if you want to get it up to nick as well. A big decision for you. :?: John

Posted

The kissaki looks odd. Is it too short or is that just the angles of the pictures? Can you post a pic that shows the kissaki from flat on? If it is too short it would indicate a broken kissaki, reshaped and with cosmetic boshi. If that were the case you wouldn't want to spend anything on restoration.

Grey

Posted

Hi Rob,

Good old sword. It looks very pitted up but could likely be restored. Likely not worth what it would cost though.

A full polish may be able to be done, but I have heard that the 'western steel' /''Namban tetsu' is a booger to polish, but does hold up to abuse very well.

I would think the mei to be good. Settsu 1673. 15 pts.

I would say that is a Komaru Boshi. . I don't think the tip has been broken, and reshaped. jmho. I think that the pic just made it look that way. The yokote is just worn off.

It is a shame about the Nakago. That was just plain cookie. A sander or grinder was used to do that last reshaping. Very doubtful that that was done in Japan.

 

Mark G

Posted

the fault on the blade looks like its an umegane which is a pocket filled in with metal after the sword been made...be careful if you get it polished as they can pull out as mine did in a kiyomitsu blade

Posted

@John:

Too bad you couldn't pin down the mon. Anyone else?

I was thinking about finding an appropriate saya and having the gunto mounts restored.

Then having it polished just enough to polish out most of the rust and pitting, leaving the nicks as they are;

this to preserve as much of the healthy shinogi shape as possible and to bring out the hamon.

Btw: can this be called a Gunome-Choji hamon?

I think I would like a sashikomi polish, like the one it is/was in now,

as I don't think I will ever want to have it papered anyway (I understand a hadori polish is kind of mandatory for this).

I think WWII is part of its history now, isn't it?

A shirasaya and a tsunagi and presto.

But you do have a point with your suggestion to sell the gunto mounts to fund the restoration,

although it wouldn't get you anywhere close to covering the costs of a restoration I suppose.

What kind of mounts would you suggest as appropriate for this kind of blade?

 

@Grey:

 

 

@Mark:

Komaru Boshi; thanks.

 

@Steve:

Umegane; that's the word, thanks. That is: if that's what it is.

But I think there isn't a polisher out there that lets me tell him what to be careful about, is there?

 

I wouldn't mind if it was: just nice to have a blade with a lot of interesting features.

Would be something else if it had cost me an arm and a leg though.

As a matter of fact: how serious would a flaw like this be?

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Posted

Also there are these stripes made by the polisher, which I’ve seen on some other blades.

Can someone tell me more about those? Is it possible to identify the polisher or the age of the polish by them?

 

Hi, Interesting pics the polishing lines do not represent individual polishers though I belive they represent a higher grade of polisher. As you probably realise different polishers apply different numbers of lines but this does not differenciate between them.

 

Kesho Migaki...

These lines, if we're really looking at a Kesho-Migaki, seems positioned were once was the Habaki so we should infer

by this that the polish which they'r related to is the one before the Suriage. In this case the Suriage might have been made

in recent times to have the blade not touching the floor in the Gunto mounting, that was worn attached to the belt, and

possibly the original owner was not tall enough to maintain all the length of the blade. If this hypotesys is right they

are not related to the present polish but to some previous one, and the use of Kesho Kigaki is quiet a recent introduction.

So the polish they are referred to might be already of the XX century C.E.

Unless the machiokuri was of epocal dimensions and the suriage is really ancient...

 

Too bad you couldn't pin down the mon.

 

Silver Mon are usually a good sign. Often before the sword was surrendered they were removed to avoid shame to the

family, so might be this wasn't surrendered but picked-up on the battlefield. *Might be*...

Posted

The mon is myoga leaves called 'myoga embracing'. I just can't identify the clan/s. Myoga is the ginger plant The Japanese word for ginger in romanji, myouga, has as a homophone the word that means 'protection of god' and is also the symbol of Madarashin, emancipation of worldly desire. John

Posted

Hi again Rob & gang,

In feel that spot you are seeing may be core steel, or something of that sort. I would doubt that a patch was done on this sword. Being made of imported steel. That is not an easy task.

I believe this smith may have been part of the Bungo Takata school of swordmaking. This sword looks very much like your typical Bungo takata sword of the era. Komaru boshi, Gonome hamon with nice fat nei. Not sure though.

There was a lot of imported steel coming into Kyushu about this time. Hence the namban steel used to make this sword.

As far as the Tsuka, and fittings go, I'm not convinced that they were made for this sword. It is obvious that some one took a grinder to this Nakago, after that last polish. This may have been done to fit this handle. The saya looks like a total throw together.

Unless you are very lucky, a basic polish will cost you at least 1k$, and that is if you can find someone local. A full polish would run 2k+++$. Not sure this sword is worth all that. But you never know. I haven't seen it in hand. It would be nice to see it without all those nasty pits.

Is it still Katana length?

Keep some oil on it, and enjoy.

Mark G

Posted

Hello,

 

I have seen and handled many gunto. Yours is of a familiar type. It appears the saya was of

the traditional type, altered by knocking out the kurikata, reinforcing with brass bands , adding on

a suspension ring and covering with a leather sleeve, now missing. It may be original to the blade.

The abuse it has suffered is , alas, also typical.

You might want to check as to whether the suspension ring can be unscrewed from the band.

This type is worth some money by itself. But do not try to actually remove it, I think.

The openwork tsuba was an extra cost option available to the officer.

(A solid version was also for officer's use. )

The numbers on the fittings are factory assembly numbers. Since these were custom fitted to

each blade a way was needed to keep track of them in the shop. Same thing for the kanji

on the tsuka end, notes as to which sword it goes with.

It may be a family blade but is as likely to have been purchased from a dealer by the officer or

his family.

The kizu (umegane) on the blade is also typical in that the blades that were sent to war were

of lower quality, often, so that if lost in battle it is not such a tragedy. The best blades were

still kept at home.

 

That is what I see here,

 

William G.

Posted

The kizu (umegane) on the blade is also typical in that the blades that were sent to war were

of lower quality, often, so that if lost in battle it is not such a tragedy. The best blades were

still kept at home.

 

I disagree with this statement. Many good quality old swords are found in gunto mounts. For instance why would officers buy Yasukuni swords that cost a huge amount of money compared to basic showato if they were worried about losing them? The reason you find so many Bungo swords in gunto mounts is simply due to the fact that they are excellent reliable cutting swords.

 

Going back to the OP, it would be simple for a restorer to patch the hole in the saya and clean it out/make a new liner at the same time. You could then have a leather combat cover fitted to hide the repair. A full restoration of the mounts with a tsuka rebind would be less than $300 in the UK.

Posted

As I walked past it this morning I noticed this:

 

The visibility of these is enhanced by the corrosion.

That is: the peaks that reach towards the ha are less corroded, more shiny, then the rest of the shinogi.

These shiny peaks more or less correspond to the valleys in the hamon.

Is this what they call Utsuri?

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Posted

Rob,

Utsuri is hard to see, even on blades in full polish. There is next to no chance of seeing it on a blade completely out of polish.

What you are seeing I think is the difference in rusting between the regular metal and the harder hamon area.

 

Brian

Posted

@Peter & Brian:

You're right, sorry, false alarm.

Turns out to be an absorption pattern in the oil film.

The more corroded parts absorbed the oil and the less corroded parts didn't (yet).

And this of course corresponds to the peaks and valleys of the hamon, but at a distance, like I understand utsuri does.

And that's why I didn't notice it in the previous photo-session with no oil on.

Guess this also means I'll have to keep cleaning and oiling it for a while as it is still absorbing the oil.

It was bone-dry when I got it. I'll keep oiling and cleaning it until the cloth stays white.

This is the way to go in order to stabilise the corrosion isn't it?

 

@Ian:

Thanks for the research.

Posted
Shirake utsuri is quite common on shinto bungo swords but like Brian says you probably wouldn't be able to see it in the current condition.

 

Only on koto blades, no utsuri on shinto Bungo blades.

Posted

Only on koto blades, no utsuri on shinto Bungo blades.

 

Not true, I've owned a papered shinto Bungo wak that had clear shirake utsuri. I was told at the time it was a kantei point on Shinto Bungo work.

 

There is one here with shirake utsuri:

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4461862

 

and another here:

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/07097.html

Posted

Hi,

 

Effectively you can sometimes find a "Kawari-deki" as said Kanzan Sato sensei, but it's not a true utsuri it's a kind of mutant not intentionally done.

 

It is also far from being *quite common*

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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