Is this Yasutsugu real or fake?

[eric-t]

Hello, 

 

I recently inherited this sword from my grandfather and I have honeslty been obsessed with it. After some research, I understand that the signature could be a Yasutsugu sword, possibly third generation. But what I am now questioning is the authenticity of the Aoi mon (crest) on the nakago. I'm seeing alot of real Aoi mon engravings that look significantly different than mine. I have also read from this forum that there are a bunch of fake Yasutsugus out there but I am unable to find examples of fake aoi mon carvings anywhere online. If this is possibly fake, it would be hard to believe based on the sheer quality of the sword. 

 

That is why I am relying on the expertise of the users of this forum to help me out.

Do any of you know if this is a fake Yasutsugu or possibly the real deal?

 

If you need more photos, I can upload them. 

 

Thanks in advance.

[Geraint]

Dear Eric.

 

First of all, this looks like a really nice sword so whatever you conclude about the mei it is still a lovely thing to have.  (I'd love to see some more detailed shots of the koshirae if you wouldn't mind sharing).  

I am by no means an expert and I am sure that others will add to what I am saying on this one.  I think you are wise to be suspicious about that mon, the cutting, even allowing for a little distortion from that dent on the edge of the nakago, looks feeble.  So that introduces two possibilities; is the mei also wrong and the sword therefore gimei, or is there a possibility that the mei is right but someone felt the need to add the mon?  Personally I'm not convinced by the calligraphy, but all the oshigata I have seen have been by the early generations.  If you have not already come across it this is a useful article, https://www.nihonto.com/the-yasutsugu-school-康継系/  Towards the end there is a diagram of many of the different generation's mei which I find useful.  You might like to take a close look at the mei in the bottom right, it's as close as I can get to yours.

 

Ultimately our opinions are just that, the decision will be whether you chose to send this for shinsa or not.  As a starting point some more pictures of the blade might help, as would a good clear shot of the entire nakago, sans habaki.

 

I look forward to what others have to say on this one but, as I said, either way it is a very nice sword.

 

All the best.

[eric-t]

12 hours ago, Geraint said:

Dear Eric.

 

First of all, this looks like a really nice sword so whatever you conclude about the mei it is still a lovely thing to have.  (I'd love to see some more detailed shots of the koshirae if you wouldn't mind sharing).  

I am by no means an expert and I am sure that others will add to what I am saying on this one.  I think you are wise to be suspicious about that mon, the cutting, even allowing for a little distortion from that dent on the edge of the nakago, looks feeble.  So that introduces two possibilities; is the mei also wrong and the sword therefore gimei, or is there a possibility that the mei is right but someone felt the need to add the mon?  Personally I'm not convinced by the calligraphy, but all the oshigata I have seen have been by the early generations.  If you have not already come across it this is a useful article, https://www.nihonto.com/the-yasutsugu-school-康継系/  Towards the end there is a diagram of many of the different generation's mei which I find useful.  You might like to take a close look at the mei in the bottom right, it's as close as I can get to yours.

 

Ultimately our opinions are just that, the decision will be whether you chose to send this for shinsa or not.  As a starting point some more pictures of the blade might help, as would a good clear shot of the entire nakago, sans habaki.

 

I look forward to what others have to say on this one but, as I said, either way it is a very nice sword.

 

All the best.

Thanks for your input Geraint!

 

Can you elaborate when you said, "Personally I'm not convinced by the calligraphy, but all the oshigata I have seen have been by the early generations?" I'm not quite sure what you meant based on the context, plus I'm still new to the nihonto terms. 

Yes, I still love the look and quality of the sword, regardless.

I also looked at that same diagram for the yasutsugu school but its hard to make out which it would be specifically since the bottom left portion of the second "tsugu" character is also different from the one you pointed out. 

But yeah, I will try to take more detailed pictures of the everything with a better camera when I get the time. I would definitely like to know as much as I can about the sword.

 

Thanks again for your feedback!

 

[Geraint]

Dear Eric.

 

When you look at a mei it is a bit like someone's handwriting, the kanji are all there but the style in which they have been written is also quite distinctive in some smiths/schools.  Please bear in mind that I am far from expert in this but to my eye the way in which your mei is chiselled looks a little forced and heavy handed, the kind of effect you might get if you were trying hard to copy someone else's writing.   Caveat:  That's just a first impression and you shouldn't put any weight on it. 

 

However the Yasutsugu line split into two and there are quite a few generations, generally the earlier ones are well regarded and hence most of the illustrations that I have seen are of those.  It may be that if you investigate the later generations  you might find a really good match for your sword.

 

Depending on where you are there might be  member here who would be happy to have a look at your sword in person and that might throw some extra light on it.  Ultimately, if you really want to know then submitting the sword to shinsa, a panel of Japanese experts, would be the way to go.  There are sometimes held in the US otherwise there are folk here who can assist you in getting the sword sent to Japan and examined there.

 

As I said, regardless of all this it's a really nice sword.

 

All the best.

[eric-t]

3 hours ago, Geraint said:

Dear Eric.

 

When you look at a mei it is a bit like someone's handwriting, the kanji are all there but the style in which they have been written is also quite distinctive in some smiths/schools.  Please bear in mind that I am far from expert in this but to my eye the way in which your mei is chiselled looks a little forced and heavy handed, the kind of effect you might get if you were trying hard to copy someone else's writing.   Caveat:  That's just a first impression and you shouldn't put any weight on it. 

 

However the Yasutsugu line split into two and there are quite a few generations, generally the earlier ones are well regarded and hence most of the illustrations that I have seen are of those.  It may be that if you investigate the later generations  you might find a really good match for your sword.

 

Depending on where you are there might be  member here who would be happy to have a look at your sword in person and that might throw some extra light on it.  Ultimately, if you really want to know then submitting the sword to shinsa, a panel of Japanese experts, would be the way to go.  There are sometimes held in the US otherwise there are folk here who can assist you in getting the sword sent to Japan and examined there.

 

As I said, regardless of all this it's a really nice sword.

 

All the best.

 

Ah, thanks for the clarification Geraint! I now understand what you were eluding to.

 

Yeah, it seems that the more I look into the signature, the more I keep finding discrepancies that does not match legitimate Yasutsugu signatures. But then again, that is also just my naked eye and I have no knowledge or expertise. 

 

But yes, I am considering getting a shinsa on the sword but I'm going to wait it out and see if I can get more information before I do so. Also, I'm reluctant to part ways with the sword for that long since I just received it lol. 

 

I'm still hoping I can get more info from others but thanks again for feedback.

 

 

[Toryu2020]

A nice inheritance. Please do show us more photos of the blade, close ups of the area under the habaki, the hamon and kissaki/boshi. The blade should confirm the mei not the other way round. If you can re-take the photos of the nakago - straight up and down, no angles on a plain background that could help with what we are seeing. A nice conundrum to have...

-t

[eric-t]

1 hour ago, Toryu2020 said:

A nice inheritance. Please do show us more photos of the blade, close ups of the area under the habaki, the hamon and kissaki/boshi. The blade should confirm the mei not the other way round. If you can re-take the photos of the nakago - straight up and down, no angles on a plain background that could help with what we are seeing. A nice conundrum to have...

-t

Thank you for your response Toryu!

 

I will certainly take more and better photos, including the whole nakago, as well as close ups of the hamon and kissaki/boshi.

 

Thank you for the compliment!

 

[eric-t]

Here are all the up close photos of the hamon, and kissaki/boshi. I did the best I could with my outdated phone.

[eric-t]

hamon, kissaki/boshi part 2

[eric-t]

hamon, kissaki/boshi part 3

[eric-t]

hamon, kissaki/boshi part 4

[eric-t]

hamon, kissaki/boshi part 5

[eric-t]

hamon, kissaki/boshi part 6

[eric-t]

hamon, kissaki/boshi part 7

[eric-t]

hamon, kissaki/boshi part 8

[eric-t]

Nakago photos

[eric-t]

Full blade

[eric-t]

Everything else

[eric-t]

Everything else

[eric-t]

Everything else

[NewB]

Gimei IMHO 

 

 

J.

[Toryu2020]

Based on these new photos I have to agree, it is gimei. The signature side is especially poorly done, with odd spacing between the characters. The ijuchi - place name - shows heavy Tagane points in the end of the strokes and I would say the Nakago-jiri is wrong for this school. As you suspected the mon is also an indicator, any insult to the shogun was punishable by death, so the Yasutsugu smiths would never let any mon out of their shop that was less than perfect...

-t

 

Still a better sword than most grandpas are leaving behind...

[eric-t]

Thanks for the feedback all. I appreciate you all taking the time to provide your input.

 

I guess my suspicions were correct after all, unfortunately. Even though its a gimei, I'm still stoked that I now own a beautiful looking sword. I never thought I would inherit anything cool like this from my grandparents. 

 

Gimei and all, it is still something I will proudly pass down.

 

Thanks again!

[Bruce Pennington]

Really nice version of the cloud/rain pattern habaki!  Some detailed work went into making that.

[Stephen]

It is a beautiful sword and you rightly can be proud of it, enjoy.

a good learning tool

[eric-t]

Would anyone know how I would go about removing the mei if I decide to do so?

 

I would think that it involves a skilled smith to do it and not something that I can just call a local blacksmith/swordsmith for, right?

 

If there is a way to remove the mei the right way, how much would something like that cost?

Anyone know reliable references that would do it in California?

 

I'm not sure if I should start a new post for this. Let me know if that is best. Thanks!

[Brian]

Why would you remove the mei unless you were sending it for polish and new papers?
Even if gimei, there are tens of thousands of decent gimei swords. They were often done hundreds of years ago. There is no need to remove the mei if it does turn out to be gimei, it's just part of its history.

[Toryu2020]

Eric - you raise the question of preservation vs restoration and as Brian above has pointed out there is no need to remove the signature unless youre in for full restoration. Jimmy Hayashi in San Francisco is a fully trained polisher and Brian Tschernega, on the west coast, has the skills to do what you ask. However I think if you want to get it restored best to make the full investment and send to Japan.

-t

[eric-t]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Yes, I am strongly considering a full restoration at this point because of the gimei. If it was mumei, I would probably leave it alone and just appreciate it/take good care of it. I understand that the gimei is also part of the swords history but I am the type to be bothered by possessing something that has any feature thats "fraudulent" or "fake." Especially something this valuable that will stay within the family. Since the sword is now in my possession and I know what I know with everyones generous feedback, I can't help but want to just wipe the nakago clean to make it mumei, restore/polish it, and potentially submit it for shinsa. Submitting it for shinsa would heavily depend on whether it is even worth it from an expert as a mumei, and whether I decide to send it to Japan for a full restoration. I am also considering the cost of everything but removing the mei is a must for me.

 

Thanks for the info Thomas! I looked up Jimmy and Brian it looks they're both in Bellevue, WA now? But I guess that is still relatively closer than the one I saw of Moses Becerra in Florida.

 

You mentioned making the full investment to get it fully restored by sending it to Japan. How would I go about doing that? Would they also remove the mei and submit it for shinsa?

 

I apologize if I am asking questions what may be common knowledge for everyone else. I tried researching about all of this through google but its been rough finding any information on services for Nihonto's, in general.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

You don't need to do anything to this sword, the polish is perfectly good and the mounts in fine condition. Leave it as is, no need to haul off on expensive and pointless restoration work.