Copper nco

[vajo]

what you think?

 

 

on facebook

(1) Military Swords of Imperial Japan (Shin Gunto) | Superb WW2 Japanese Sword NCO copper Handle | Facebook

[mdiddy]

I am biased because I have held this sword in my hand. It's incredible, perfect minty example, low number. Probably the best early copper nco I have seen. It is also set to be published in an upcoming book (see here for some details). It's the exact sword from the book.

[robinalexander]

Chris,

 

It just looks too good to be true. 

 

Was it removed from circulation shortly after production?

 

Was it issued to a 'base wallah' who was stationed in Japan for the duration of the war?

 

I am not saying its not genuine and no doubt it will sell for a motsa but but I'm afraid I could not bring myself to bid on it, even if I had the money for this copper 95..

 

Rob

 

 

[vajo]

I think too its a genuine one but the colors looks strange. The saya looks repainted, the tsuba is very shiny and the tsuka is not that copper patina. But maybe we most know only the swords which where on war and so this is the real coloring? I dont know. 8.500 Dollar is a hughe amount of money for a nco. 

 

Oh i wrote cooper instead of copper in title. Was thinking on my Mini?

[Ontario_Archaeology]

Having watched quite a few of the sellers auctions / sales normally he lists them for 2x the amount the sword sells for, I guess if there is someone who really wants it has an opportunity to pay that extra. If it doesn't sell a best offer is taken or it goes to the usual auction. 

 

As for the sword. Its kind of amazing that such a low number is in pretty much untouched condition, although I'm not sure it's my cup of tea, I like atleast a little wear and tear on my gunto. 

[mdiddy]

This sword came from a 50 year collection, one of the top collections of Japanese military swords out there. The collector is very knowledgeable and experienced, and over 50 years pretty much saw the best of what was available, upgrading over time, and ended up with either the rarest variations or best conditioned examples.

If you had 50 years to handle these swords, particularly when there were tens of thousands of swords surfacing in the U.S., I don't think it's unreasonable to end up with a pristine example such as this one. 

[Stephen]

What is the take on Facebook group...what are they calling it. I quit the group and refuse to ask to join.

[Ontario_Archaeology]

27 minutes ago, Stephen said:

What is the take on Facebook group...what are they calling it. I quit the group and refuse to ask to join.

Only one individual thinks its a repaint, another person posted their copper nco with the number 393. 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Mixed feelings, too, on the saya color.  The whole gunto had been cleaned, and like Chris said, the tsuba is over-buffed.  Yet, on the saya haikan, there is obvious wear.  Even some black marks on the saya from, what?, belt-chain or something?  I haven't seen enough coppers with original paint to know.  @Stegel and @Shamsy are the guys to say about that.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The overuse of "mint" has been a longstanding joke among Gunto/militaria enthusiasts. How many complete swords (blade & koshirae) have we seen over the years listed as "mint condition" that come nowhere near that definition?

 

Mint – Merriam Webster defines this as “unmarred as if fresh from a mint”. We would use this to describe an item in perfect condition. For a book or magazine, it would mean unread and absolutely nary a crease or wrinkle. For other items, as it came from the factory and if in its original packaging, we would call it “mint in the box.”

Near-mint – This would describe an item that may show minimal wear but would still be close to mint condition.

Very fine – Showing moderate evidence of wear. You could also use just the descriptor of fine.

Good – It’s seen a bit of life, but still very useable; It’s obvious the item has been cherished and used per it’s function, but it has life left and/or could be lightly restored.

Poor – Major flaws are evident, and the item may have parts or pieces missing. It would need a major restoration to be useable or a candidate for a repurposing project.

[Brian]

I find it a bit funny and also sad that people are so quick to always find fault or assume incorrect info.
Personally, saying something is "too good to be real or that the condition can't be as new is just plain silly. Every year mint guns come up for sale that are 150 years old. We don't question a mint Colt SAA etc when it survives as made.
There are always going to be mint wartime items. Sometimes they just didn't make it to battle or were left at HQ. There are a ton of other possibilities.
I see nothing odd with an item owned by an expert in the subject who dedicated his life to finding the best examples. Lighten up folks. Provenance is a huge part of collecting and this one has that in chunks.
Just enjoy an advanced collection coming up for sale and let's support this project.

[vajo]

 

Ohmura wrote "The copper hilt(Tsuka) is natural oxidization leather film coating which is not painted. Brass aoi-shaped guard (Tsuba)."

 

As i wrote i have only seen used ones and so i can't know how the copper ones looked like as they have gone to their new owner from the workshop. It's like you see only rusted weathered cars in your life and think why the hell is that car total blue? 

 

here some examples from google search from different sources to show my problem, which are made with flashlight as the mint one, i think.

 

I'm sure that the copper NCO from the collection is a real and stunning sword, but i'm not sure that it is not a little pimped. In the saya is the typical nick so it was worn.

 

 

 

 

 

[robinalexander]

Yep I would certainly go into bat for any of those Chris.

 

For me, they are just more desirable.  Having said that, I totally understand that collectors are not all looking for the same things in a sword 

 

[Shamsy]

Sword looks fine to me. The tsuba shouldn't be that shiny though, agree with Bruce. They left the factory with a protective brown finish. This looks polished. Not the best example I've seen. Doesn't have the original leather sarute, blade looks a bit worn, dented saya... so I sort of guess I see why some people may be sceptical about the paint. I've seen a few very clean gunto with well worn parts that do not match the new finish of the paint. Coppers were refurbished by arsenals though, sometimes a couple of times, so paint could be 'original' or could be a refurbished one or could have been repainted post war. I have one with three distinct greens on it in layers. Don't know with this one, but a very nice example.

 

I find the lower the copper numbers the better condition. I suspect that a great deal of the earliest coppers had leather combat covers, so pristine or close to paint is certainly believable. I mean, I don't really have more to say. Looks like a great example, I'd buy it, but not at that price for me.

 

The seller is great too.

 

Oh edit to add I once had a pattern 5 that was 'mint'. Still coated in grease on blade, mint paint, looked unissued. Not a mark on it, no chips, completely as new. So they do absolutely exist.

[BANGBANGSAN]

This NCO is good, but the tsuba looks polished, too shinny. Scabbard color is different than the others, not sure if it is original or the factory repaint.
Some people might buy it for that price, it's clean and has a low number, but the price is not for most collectors. Due to a few nice NCOs sold for the high price recently, other sellers seem to want to get the premium price as well. There are two copper NCOs for sale on the bay for a while w, list for $5K , not been sold yet. But both are not as nice as this one.

[Shamsy]

Just one extra observation to add and a question to ask. There are a few variations to the saya drag for coppers. As far as I am aware, the earliest swords should have a horse shoe shaped drag, while this looks like the later saya drag, squared off.

 

Is the saya matching? 

 

Can someone please post a higher resolution photo of the drag?

[vajo]

There was on Facebook a thread with pictures were i copied it but it was deleted. No picture of the koiguchi.

[mdiddy]

7 hours ago, Shamsy said:

Just one extra observation to add and a question to ask. There are a few variations to the saya drag for coppers. As far as I am aware, the earliest swords should have a horse shoe shaped drag, while this looks like the later saya drag, squared off.

 

Is the saya matching? 

 

Can someone please post a higher resolution photo of the drag?

 

I can confirm that the saya is matching. Will see if I can get a photo of the drag.

[Stegel]

Given the serial number of the blade, the scabbard drag is correct.

Looking at the colour of the scabbard, i would tend to agree with Bruce's mixed feelings. It appears a bit 'lime' green to me, but it could be just the photo settings after editing for publication. (adjustments to light levels, etc)

There are a few scuffs present so it is not 'Mint' as per John's definitions (thanks for them John), but, i think it's a little better than 'Near Mint'  if that's possible.

Appears to be a very nice example.

 

[Shamsy]

2 hours ago, Stegel said:

Given the serial number of the blade, the scabbard drag is correct.

 

@Stegel

 

Given that the sword is in the hundreds range (371), should it not have a horse shoe drag? Because the early swords I remember seeing up to and past 600 all have horse shoe shaped drags. Yet this drag appears to be the more common half oval type evident in later models, up until and past 6,000? I can't see very well because of the low resolution, but it definitely looks like a horizontal line across the saya. It could be the half circle too... I really can't tell but it definitely doesn't look like the horse shoe.

 

So which drags do you attribute to what serial ranges, because if there was a drag style inbetween the first 100 to 700, I am unaware of it and am keen to see what number ranges contain each of the four styles.

 

I have been very lax the last couple of years in keeping records of coppers I've seen, so I am sure your own records would be much more complete. 

 

 

[Stegel]

The 2nd photo that Vajo posted shows the serial number, I believe it is 871 and not 371.

A clearer photo would help as the lighting appears to be from the side.

Mdiddy, could you confirm the serial number please?

[mdiddy]

Yes, I can confirm that is correct. The serial number is 871.

[Kiipu]

It is atypical for a sword in this serial number range to have a 東 inspection mark after the serial number.  However, @Stegel might override me on this factoid.

[Stegel]

Thanks for confirming the S/N Matt,

Kiipu, I’ll have to get back to you on that, not near my computer at the moment

[Shamsy]

4 hours ago, Stegel said:

The 2nd photo that Vajo posted shows the serial number, I believe it is 871 and not 371.

A clearer photo would help as the lighting appears to be from the side.

Mdiddy, could you confirm the serial number please?

That explains it! When I look at it any less than full zoom it looks like a 3, then as soon as you said 8 it was suddenly so obvious I thought as a 300 it would have the horse shoe, but they extend only up to around 700. 

[Kiipu]

3 hours ago, Shamsy said:

I thought as a 300 it would have the horse shoe, but they extend only up to around 700. 

 

For those wondering what Shamsy is referring to, a picture of one can be seen at the link below.  The plug at the bottom of the scabbard is U-shaped; hence, horseshoe.

Type 95 Nco Copper Hilt

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

a picture of one can be seen

Good example, Thomas!  Also, realizing very different lighting in that gunto photos and this one, seems like it supports the saya color on the Plimpton piece:

 

From the other one cited by Thomas:

[Stegel]

8 hours ago, Kiipu said:

It is atypical for a sword in this serial number range to have a 東 inspection mark after the serial number.  However, @Stegel might override me on this factoid.

Yes, i remember now, -having just checked again.

You are correct in what you say, the 東 inspection mark only begins to show from about 1200 onwards.

However, there is one sword at the 780 mark that does appear to have traces of the inspection stamp after the serial number, very faint, almost as if it was buffed off or poorly struck.

It is no where near as clean as this one here.

Thanks for highlighting this little factoid!  Very interesting!

[Shamsy]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Type 95 Nco Copper Hilt

That thread makes me a little sad. The original leather sarute still on the sword, but broken on one side. I only recall seeing a single example wholly intact. Even so, the sword in the thread is still about as good an example of a copper as you could possibly hope and with numbers in the double digits to boot.

[mdiddy]

It's back up on Facebook if you want to see more photos: https://www.facebook.com/groups/255263006217/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=10158473800406218