What is this type of jigane?

[pcfarrar]

I have an interesting o-suriage wakizashi with chu-suguha hamon. I wondered what would be the best classification for the jigane?

 

Would this be called dense ko-itame?

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

[John A Stuart]

Peter, there is the old niggler again. I use itame almost always for this structure. I find it is comprehensive enough. Of course 'ko' added if very fine or 'o' if very large. I really consider mokume so close in structure to be almost defy-ably the same. Can anyone really see a difference between ko-itame and ko-mokume? Then with definitions of mokume itame mix, it is only how it was hammered out some area stretching a bit further than others in spots being basically the same base structure as itame. Others will disagree I'm sure. Just my opinion. John

[paulb]

Peter,

can you post a picture of rhe whole blade and the boshi?

from your original image I would go with ko-itame but could equally consider konuka, nashiji etc depending on what actvity, chikei, ji-nie etc is visible

paul

[pcfarrar]

There is fine ji-nie but its hard to photo. The whole nakago is blade steel, so I think it may be a cut down katana.

I've tried to show the boshi in the picture as it doesn't photo very well on my camera.

[pcfarrar]

The jigane is very similar to the Mutsu no Kami Tadayoshi on Darcy's website. I wondered if it could be a later generation Tadayoshi.

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/ss.php?title=Muts ... -tadayoshi

[paulb]

Hi Peter,

The jigane could certainly be described as Konuka. Against it being Hizen Tadayoshi school is the shape wch looks a bit clunky. I am guessing its hard to tell in current polish but can you see the thickness of the nioi-guchi or whether there is any nie running through the hamon or within the jigane?

[pcfarrar]

Hi Paul,

 

The nioiguchi is fairly wide and has a good amount of fine ko-nie in it. Also plenty of nie in the jigane. It's not as brilliant or as bright as the nie in my nidai Hizen Tadahiro and doesn't have the same kind of quantity. I did wonder if it might be a 17th century Bungo sword. The shape does seem to be more in line with Bungo:

 

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/g80.htm

[paulb]

Hi Peter,

Before going down the Bungo route I think it is worth looking at later generation Hizen smiths. From 5 through to 7 the quality did trail off a little which resulted in less nie and a more robust look. I still think this shape is too heavy but I also think it is worth looking a little more deeply before going to the outer schools. (Bungo Takada did do Hizen copies amongst others BTW)

regards

paul

[lonely panet]

Hi every one, sorry i cant spell the correct Japanese way but to me that looks like pear skin hada

Regards Hamfish

[Bazza]

  pcfarrar said:

Hi Paul,

 

The nioiguchi is fairly wide and has a good amount of fine ko-nie in it. Also plenty of nie in the jigane. It's not as brilliant or as bright as the nie in my nidai Hizen Tadahiro and doesn't have the same kind of quantity. I did wonder if it might be a 17th century Bungo sword. The shape does seem to be more in line with Bungo:

 

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/g80.htm

IS THERE A MILT IN THE HOUSE?????!!!!

Bazza.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

this blade seems kaku-mune, if it is the case, this eliminates Tadayoshi/Tadahiro.

[pcfarrar]

  Jacques D. said:

Hi,

 

this blade seems kaku-mune, if it is the case, this eliminates Tadayoshi/Tadahiro.

 

It might be kaku-mune but I have no way of checking now.

[Clive Sinclaire]

I don't think this looks anything like konuka-hada and the polish is so poor that it is hard to say what it is. Personally I can't see that the hamon looks anything like Hizen-to. Those that say the "nioguchi is wide" and can see ko-nie have far better eyes than I. If it were san-dai Tadayoshi, and in a reasonable polish, the jihada would be outstanding and not questionable. It is impossible for me to see any ji-nie in these pictures. If it does really look like Hizen-to you should also consider other smiths such as those from Aki-no-Kuni.

On the otrher hand, it is Saturday and rather late!

Clive

[paulb]

Hi Clive,

I am not sure whether you are saying that there is no possibility of it being konuka hada or you cant see enough to to say whether it is or not or you just cant see enough to say what it is.

I agree that the current state of polish does not offer enough detail to make an accurate call. As I also said I didn't think the shape was Hizen. All I was trying to do was point out that it was worth looking in more detail before jumping in to the Bungo Takada catch all.

While not having the same depth of experience as you I have also collected Hizen blades for a lot of years and still have several in my much reduced collection. The range of hada within the works of successive generations show a lot of variability within what is still described as Konuka hada.

regards

Paul

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

If you want to see what is Hizen Konuka hada

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/omi-daijo-tadahiro-2/

[paulb]

Jacques

As said above I have been collecting Hizen blades for a lot of years so I have some idea of what Konuka hada is, but thank you for the link. As it happens, and although I admire Darcy's work, in this case I don't think it shows the hada particularly well.

Without labouring the point all I was trying to say is that within the term konuka hada there is some variability. Within my collection I currently have swords by the shodai, nidai sandai and a later blade. All have what has been described as Konuka hada but all have variation and differences.

I agree with Clive that the state of the polish did not allow one to see details such as ji-nie, the Nioi guchi or anything much else from the images. But because of that I did not think one could make a definitive statement that it is or isn't something all I was saying is do not immediately jump down the Bungo road without further study.

regards

Paul