Oh for goodness sake!

[Spartancrest]

I have mentioned these reproductions before but this one is gouging beyond belief.  https://www.jauce.com/auction/q1021280421 I have no idea how they are made but they are mass produced and I mean on mass. The most obvious giveaway is the simulated sekigane and the tagane-ato marks on the ura side - always identical. Whether some patient production line painter colours in the images or some computer printer sprays the images on I don't know. Other examples don't even bother with the colour at all. I wish it were possible to put up "Not Wanted" posters on these they really annoy me. This sellers spiel is really ironic  "Why don't you replace the Iaito tsuba with the Edo period tsuba?" That sounds good advice, but why replace a copy with a more expensive copy?  $394.30 USD.

 

There is a book out there somewhere that has an image of the same guard I would love to find the book. If you look carefully on the bottom image there is the outline of another common copied guard, four long eared rabbits running through the waves - perhaps it is a book of common fakes? https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/Japanese-tsuba-oni-and-priest-large-katana

[Bugyotsuji]

Like this?

 

[Spartancrest]

Piers, you may have found the original piece! The copies don't hold a candle to that one. Are they shakudo eyes?

The one in the missing book has 'carvings' where your example does not. The ears are not nearly as well done as on your example.

[Bugyotsuji]

That was taken from a Tsuba book; I have no more information Dale, other than the B&W photo and the description alongside.

 

[GRC]

Dale, I think this one is a new low... comes complete with NBTHK papers!!!!

A "lovely" 100% CAST tsuba with sekigane that was painted on!

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/s1021396810 

 

[PietroParis]

If you scroll down the Yahoo ad there are higher-def pictures, can you point to obvious signs of casting there? To my untrained eye the sekigane does not seem painted.

 

[GRC]

For starters, you can see brush strokes on the sekigane, and the color doesn't even carry through the middle of the tsuba, its just on the surfaces.

[GRC]

Here's some places where the mimi "spills" into the area where there should have been a chiseled groove.

 

And some general casting flaws, like "voids" that are missing from the surface.

 

And...WTF? What happened here at the hitsu-ana that has a whole canyon-sized divot missing from its edge, and the divot has smooth rounded edges all over it. That suggests it was poured as molten metal, and not the result of some sort of chipping damage from a chisel.

 

 

[GRC]

and then there's the overall grey, uniform colour.

as well as the fact that the surface of the flowers, leaves and seppadai all have this sort of "pocked", dimply surface that wasn't done by a hammer or punches. It looks kind of "sand blasted".   

[GRC]

I have to admit, the steel plate of the one Dale posted had me fooled when I first saw the image of the whole tsuba, even though the coloring of the painted "inlays" is very wrong (too bright and bold).

But the high-res images show that same dimply, pocked surface over the whole plate, including the litlle "oni" demon.

 

Also, if you look at the mimi (rim), there's a clear casting "seem" that runs along its edge:

[rkg]

Glen,

I personally kind of think the sekigane on that piece is real, but there does seem to be something odd there - the carving has problems as you point out, there's those odd divots in the surface, etc - could it have been corroded and cleaned up, some kind of period casting, or....?  what's odder is that it "rated" Tok Hoz papers.  I mean, I guess the condition is OK, but that shigetoshi isn't listed in my "usual suspect" mei book*, so he's probably a lesser known tsubako, etc. 

 

The seller seems to have up a number of other er, lackluster (IMHO) pieces with Tok Hoz papers as well.  I guess its another "what actually allows a piece get TH papers isn't what we think" moment.  I should note that the seller seems legit I am in no way trying to say they aren't, I just can't figure out how some of these kodogu got higher level papers:

https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/seller/yokohama_chishin_net

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

*Markus sesko's excellent translation of the mei book whose name escapes me at the moment - the electronic copy is searchable and makes finding the guys when they are noted in the Japanese auctions a snap (gotta love cut and paste) - highly recommended - he might sell a pdf directly if you ask (contact him directly on that), but here's a link on lulu to the physical book:
https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/markus-sesko/signatures-of-Japanese-sword-fittings-artists/hardcover/product-1mwe2v6y.html?page=1&pageSize=4

 

Not deliberately trying to threadjack here but...  As an aside, you can do the same thing with his e geneaologies of Japanese tsuba and tōsō-kinkō Artists  book (same thing - searchable kanji is great for those of us who are getting old/suffering from CRS and can't seem to memorize/remember the up to 8 different pronunciations associated with those 2000+ kanji of interest anymore :-/ ).

 

rkg

 

EDIT: again, to be fair, the seller has other papered pieces where IMHO the Tok Hoz papers seem right, like this yondai yasuchika - the back/end is a bit beat up, but....:
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/c1021388601

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by rkg
add more information....

[GRC]

I was leaning towards a "period casting" as well. It's the only way I could kind of reconcile the presence of the papers... 

I guess I was just "shocked" to see papers for something that looks cast. Does NBTHK give papers for period castings?

 

Richard, you're totally right that the surface texture could be because of corrosion that got cleaned up, so the texture alone isn't a 100% lock for it being cast or not.

 

And, just to be clear, I wasn't trying to suggest the seller was being purposefully deceitful. I can't know what he knows and what his intentions are. But ya, I didn't think through the implications of posting, and that the seller would probably be judged...

 

I just find this situation to be a real head-scratcher  because it just doesn't look right...to me anyway 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

https://www.jauce.com/auction/t1021555062  This one has a new definition of the word 'Ubu'! $434.41 USD.

[Spartancrest]

I wish I had a dollar for every dodgy one of these that turns up. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/184026335453  at ridiculous prices. US $537.90

[In fact I would have enough to buy one ten times over]

[GRC]

Here are two more YahooJ examples. I didn't put links this time so I don't throw anyone under the bus...

but one's got a sizeable starting price along with a buyout price, while the other already has a bunch of bids and watchers, so could fetch a pretty high price.

 

This one is a 100% casting (there is no doubt on this one):

 The mei is not chiseled and the tagane-ato are not punched: both are too smooth and have the same surface finish as the rest of the tsuba.

Also, if this was mounted (as suggested by the presence of tagane-ato), then where are the signs of edge-wear from the brass seppa washers that would have rubbed against the seppa dai? 

There's also casting seems running along the midline of the sukashi areas.

 

Here's a mass produced cast Nio guardian tsuba (although looks great for a repro), for sure produced in the 1900s but not exactly sure when. Although it does have the same kinds of colours as the one Dale posted... maybe these ones are current productions?

A much more detailed kinko one (possibly the original?) is in the Met gallery and was made in the Meiji period.

Here's an identical one without the colour finishes:

 

[rkg]

On 11/24/2021 at 7:02 AM, Spartancrest said:

I wish I had a dollar for every dodgy one of these that turns up. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/184026335453  at ridiculous prices. US $537.90

[In fact I would have enough to buy one ten times over]

 

The other day it struck me how the composition of ebay kodogu fittings has changed over the years.  Back in the day most of these er, foreign made utushi were listed out of China - now they are all pretty much listed by sellers from Japan.  Between that, the Japanese re-listings of items on Yahoo!Japan (both by the actual owners of the pieces and arbitragers), and the large number of pieces out of Japan with very er, market leading prices (not sure why they do this - fine if you want to dicker, but starting out the piece at several times what it "should" sell for? Really?  Maybe they get enough bunnies to make it worth it) its too bad you can't just block certain countries - used to be I'd want to block listings from China, now I'm wondering if it might be more productive to just block the Japanese ones

rkg

[Spartancrest]

I am trying not to pick on any one seller - rather on the examples they are selling. This dealers collection would have to include 80% fakes as is easily assessed from the repeated patterns - https://www.jauce.com/user/siidr41271?&search=tsuba&n=100&page=1

But I would like to warn of this particular design -  https://www.jauce.com/auction/t1025613501 - these are available in 'Iroe'" or plain metal and they turn up fairly regularly, as far as a copy goes they are well made but they are a copy. The quality is akin to the example in the first post and may be 'Museum Souvenirs'

 

 

[Brian]

Nose picking competition with the one guy busy and the other guy showing what he already harvested?

[vajo]

It's like "Kukucksuhren" made in China and then import it to Germany and sell it 3 times higher in price direct out of the black forest. 😁

[Spartancrest]

Well we would be "cuckoo" to buy either of them wouldn't we Chris. 

[vajo]

😂 maybe Dale, maybe.

[Tanto54]

@Brian You gave me a good laugh!  Here's a real one from MFA Boston.  Three Sake Tasters which morphed from the Chinese Three Vinegar Tasters.  Confucius, Buddha, and Laozi (representing  Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism) each taste the sake/vinegar and have a different reaction (sour, bitter, sweet) revealing their different underlying principals and approach to life (despite the fact that they are tasting from the same vat (representing life).

 

 

[Spartancrest]

This one looks familiar [he is still picking at his nose!] https://www.dorotheum.com/en/l/2686747/

 

The description does not give me a lot of confidence - "Meiji period or later"  how much later?

[GRC]

I was just reading the list of criteria for NBTHK shinsa rankings and it turns out that Edo period cast tsuba CAN get Hozon papers.

Here are the relevant rules:

 

"-Cast fittings that are of high class and worthy being appreciated can receive Hozon if they do not date later than Edo."

"-Contemporary cast fittings will be rejected."

 

So Edo period cast fittings are still considered worthy to earn a possible Hozon ranking.

[GRC]

and I suppose we should add Tengu here, with his Pinocchio nose...

I have seen the identical one twice, and one time with "gold" overlay.

I hope no one here bought one ...

[GRC]

Oh and this one has popped up a few times as well:

 "Heianjo Sumicho Yoshisaku"

Casting defects along the raised rim of the mimi and in the large kanji motifs (which were NOT chiseled by hand):

[Tanto54]

Dear Glen, you probably already know this, but just to clarify for others, almost all of the cast items that are being talked about here are modern fakes (from the last 30 years) and are not the kind of "mirror" or Edo castings that the NBTHK is talking about.

[GRC]

Oh absolutely 

 

I know this is the modern fakes page, but if you scroll up, I posted one a while back that I thought was a modern casting, but had NBTHK papers. I couldn't wrap my head around it at the time, and thought that maybe the papers might be fake?

But now that I know Edo period cast tsuba can get Hozon papers, it makes a lot more sense. 

 

So, all the other tsuba in this thread would definitely fail to get Hozon papers because they are modern fakes.  

I just posted these last two examples to help warn people on NMB so they don't caught in the trap.

[Tanto54]

Thanks Glen, one other thing to remember is that many of the Japanese experts are not well versed in these cast fakes either (it is a different skill set - more in the realm of gold-smithing than in tsuba kantei), so mistakes can be made (even by the best...)

[Spartancrest]

I found Glen's gold highlighted Tengu - it sold back on January the first for ¥ 22,960  or close to $200 US. 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1028555726

It pays some times not to clean out your old watch lists.