ShuShinKan Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Dear readers, I am quite new to kanji reading (48 hours) and I have found a sword with the kanji that I will attach to the message (I am brandnew to this forum, too). What I think that I found out yet is : Date 1513 - 8 - 14 Smith: Tadamitsu I can be totally wrong, but thanks to all the information in internet I made at least an attempt. The seller wants €1600:- or $1800:- blade in saya, polished It would be great to get some feedback on the kanji and on the blades pricing - as far this is possible... Hope, I do not break all laws at once with this posting.... Quote
reinhard Posted February 19, 2009 Report Posted February 19, 2009 ShuShinKan said: Hope, I do not break all laws at once with this posting Not all of them, but you make me wonder, once more, what I am doing here. reinhard Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 19, 2009 Report Posted February 19, 2009 Hopefully Reinhard, being a beacon for those astray. Shishiken, Asking what monetary value does one think an item is worth, especially if the item is up for auction or sale can be percieved as crass. There is a seperate sub-forum for this. It can be a bugaboo, sometimes. Just a heads up. John Quote
Jean Posted February 19, 2009 Report Posted February 19, 2009 Impossible to answer. Too much Tadamitsus and it depends on the blade general condition, exact signature ....wrong sub forum section too BTW. Best answer, the price you are ready to buy it is the ggod one; otherwise back off .... Quote
Brian Posted February 19, 2009 Report Posted February 19, 2009 Before I move this, can you let us know if this is an online sales item that you found, or maybe a local dealer to you, friend looking to sell or... ? Brian Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Posted February 19, 2009 Hello, sorry for the inconvenience, somehow the pictures do not seem to be with the posting. To answer the question, it is a private swedish collector who wants to sell. Actually I am quite new to nihonto and do not have any experience at all just that i bought an expensive fake for a year ago. Hope I manage with the fotos this time. Now it seems to have worked out! I got actually confirmed that it is a tadamitsu, but which one? Thanks for your help! ShuShinKan Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Posted February 19, 2009 Just read Juyis comment on how to ask, so here are more pictures Gunther Quote
Jacques Posted February 20, 2009 Report Posted February 20, 2009 Hi, It should be Tadamitsu Heiuemonnojo. He worked in Bizen around Eisho (1504) He is rated Jo-saku. His father Hikobei Tadamistu is rated JoJosaku. Quote
Jean Posted February 20, 2009 Report Posted February 20, 2009 Make your choice, it is a long genealogy, and without any oshigata difficult to say. Main characteristics : particular boshi (not always) associated with suguha with ashi (not always). TADAMITSU SHO-O 1288 BIZEN TAD 115 JO-JO 750 TADAMITSU 1st GEN-KYO 1321 BIZEN TAD 116 JO-JO 750 TADAMITSU 2nd EN-BUN 1356 BIZEN 362-363 K 190 TAD 117 JO-JO/JUYO 550 t TOMOMITSU TADAMITSU EI-TOKU 1381 BIZEN 363 TAD 119 JO-JO 750 GOROSAEMONJO TADAMITSU EI-KYO 1429 BIZEN 363 TAD 120 JO-SAKU 500 f IYEMORI TADAMITSU 1st BUN-MEI 1469 BIZEN 363 K 190 TAD 122 JO-JO/JUYO 700 HIKOBEJO TADAMITSU 2nd EI-SHO 1504 BIZEN 363-364 K 192 TAD 123 JO-JO/JUYO 700 HIKOBEJO TADAMITSU 3rd TEN-MON 1532 BIZEN TAD 127 JO-SAKU 600 HIKOBEJO TADAMITSU BUN-MEI 1469 BIZEN 364 TAD 128 JO-SAKU 600 HIKOSABURO TADAMITSU 1st BUN-MEI 1469 BIZEN 364 TAD 124 JO-SAKU 600 SHURINOSUKE TADAMITSU 2nd BUN-GI 1501 BIZEN 364 TAD 125 JO-SAKU 600 SHURINOSUKE TADAMITSU 1st MEI-O 1492 BIZEN 364 K 196 TAD 131 JO-SAKU/JUYO 500 KUROSAEMONJO TADAMITSU 2nd TEN-MON 1532 BIZEN 364 TAD 132 JO-SAKU 350 KUROSAEMONJO TADAMITSU TEN-MON 1532 BIZEN 364 TAD 139 JO-SAKU 400 JUROSAEMONJO TADAMITSU EI-SHO 1504 BIZEN 364-365 K 194 TAD 133 JO-JO 650 HEIUEMONJO TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN BUN-MEI 1469 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN CHO-KYO 1487 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN EN-TOKU 1489 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN MEI-O 1492 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN BUN-GI 1501 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN EI-SHO 1504 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN TAI-EI 1521 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN KYO-ROKU 1528 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN TEN-MNO 1532 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN KO-JI 1555 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN EI-ROKU 1558 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 TADAMITSU SUE-BIZEN GEN-KI 1570 BIZEN JO-SAKU 400 http://www.sho-shin.com/smiths1g.htm BTW, what is the length? Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Posted February 20, 2009 Did I send a reply already? I am quite sorry for confusing you guys, should ake me some time to learn how to post in a forum. I press far to meny of the buttons and then I think - I posted pictures, I posted comments etc... and I simply didn't. Sorry for that. First of all: You guys are great! Thanks a lot so far! (As it said that I shoud be patient with requests, I thought about a week- month time, but you are really burning for it!) To try figuring out the name and date was one of the most thrilling experiences I ever head - encouraging that at least the smith name is confirmed by you specialists - I am quite positive about my guessed date too. Jean, If we could get the date confirmed we would know more about which Tadamitsu this is. My suggestion is Ei sho 9th year 8 month and 14 days. I will try to get more fotos about the blade. Jaques, thanks for your idea about the smith name. I will prepare to give it a close look when I take a look on the blade in (planned) two weeks. I'll try to get more information and try to see myself first before I unleash you, if that is ok with you?! I need to learn a lot, I am a total newbie. Once again, thanks so far, hope I am back with more information soon! Quote
Jacques Posted February 20, 2009 Report Posted February 20, 2009 Hi, Jean, The blade is dated Eisho kyunen (1512) Hachi gatsu kichi hi (a lucky day in the eighth month) Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Posted February 20, 2009 You are cruel! I hardly cannnot see anything and have only wild guessings. Thanks! Have found out now about the Jo-saku classification, but I did not find an explaination about the point system. Seems to be connected to the classification. But maybe I should ask this in another thread of the forum. Gunther Quote
Brian Posted February 20, 2009 Report Posted February 20, 2009 The point system is just a relative point system allocated to various smiths, and is largely a personal opinion at that time. In other words, a 15 point smith is just mediocre, while a 70 point smith was considered quite good. Just compare them relatively, and don't place too much faith in the system. It does give you a good idea of how highly rated the smith was though. Brian Edit to add: I was talking about the Hawley point system. This one here is similar. Relatively speaking, a 150 point smith is vastly inferior to a 1000 point smith. It isn't a very reliable system though, so used only as a guide. Quote
Jacques Posted February 20, 2009 Report Posted February 20, 2009 Hi, About the nihonto smiths ranking, you can see here Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Posted February 20, 2009 Dear Brian, dear Jaques, thank you for the introduction. Kind of you to take care of me... Gunther Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Posted February 20, 2009 Jean, I have got some more pictures. Not as good as I could see something on them, but you surprised me already with your eagle-eyes! Have fun! Is there an upper limit for the amount of pictures in one message? Ill come back with a picture in picture -picture. gunther Quote
Jean Posted February 21, 2009 Report Posted February 21, 2009 Interesting, the kanji for the year numeral makes me think of "moto" as in Kanemoto, so I rather read Gannen "first year" but I am no specialist... Quote
Nobody Posted February 21, 2009 Report Posted February 21, 2009 Yes, the date is Eisho Gan-nen Hachi-gatsu Kichi-jitsu (= a lucky day in the 8th month of 1504). 永正元年八月吉日 Quote
Jacques Posted February 21, 2009 Report Posted February 21, 2009 Hi, Nobody said: Yes, the date is Eisho Gan-nen Hachi-gatsu Kichi-jitsu (= a lucky day in the 8th month of 1504).永正元年八月吉日 After a best look, thats right (gannen), i'm not the only one to be wrong, Afu Watson too Oshigata: Translation: Page 195 Plate I: BUNKI NINEN MIZUNOE INU SANGATSU Plate II: BIZEN KUNI JÛ OSAFUNE HEIUEMONNOJÔ FUJIWARA TADAMITSU ? Plate III: ? EISHÔ KYÛNEN HACHIGATSU KICHIJITSU Plate IV: BIZEN KUNI JÛ OSAFUNE TADAMITSU ? Quote
Jean Posted February 21, 2009 Report Posted February 21, 2009 Thanks a lot Koichi san. This means it remains about 5 to 6 Tadamitsu smiths which can fit. Yes, the boshi looks Tadamitsu's. a picture of the Teiryo Yoji and from the Nihonto zuikan (watch the year) and the text reads as follows : 備前国住長船忠光備前国住長船子平右衛門尉作忠光之彫物弟文四郎作(永正元年八月日) 刃長二尺一寸、反八分二厘、鋳造、先反高く中切先。表棒樋に連樋、買の倶利迦譲、裏同じく棒樋に連樋、八幡大菩薩の文字の彫。鍛え小板目肌特に詰む。刃文 広直刃、匂口締心小沸っく。帽子小丸深い。中心生ぶ、出来良し。乙の倶利迦羅彫は祐定、貴光にもあって手法が同じである。 Sorry I shall not translate, but have a look at the year in grass Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Posted February 21, 2009 Just got a warning! Someone else thinking that the mei could be faked? In case somebody has a photo of a Tadamitsu signature and date stamping from around Eisho in his archive, it would be great being able to take a look on it. When you do not want to put out more pictures here to save spae on the servers harddisk, you can even send them directly to me: ShuShinKan@kvarnberg.se Please post your opinions, preferably here so all can see them! Thanks a lot! One more thing: Are there any ways to determine the age of a shirasaya? Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 21, 2009 Report Posted February 21, 2009 ShuShinKan said: One more thing:Are there any ways to determine the age of a shirasaya? Unless there are inscriptions on it (that might have been added later), it's hard to date a Shirasaya. They are re-done periodically, for various reasons. This can mean 20 or 200 years. If you are thinking to check the age of this blade thru the age of the shirasaya, isn't a reliable way. Quote
Jacques Posted February 21, 2009 Report Posted February 21, 2009 Hi, Quote In case somebody has a photo of a Tadamitsu signature and date stamping from around Eisho in his archive, it would be great being able to take a look on it. Jean and me have posted one juste above. Quote
Jean Posted February 21, 2009 Report Posted February 21, 2009 I provided you a mei from Gannen Eisho and so did Jacques, there are too many smiths names Tadamitsu at the same time, the best is listed. For your info, there is no the usual fault in the mei that one find when someone has put a gimei on a simili Bizen sword. At that time the right wording was : Bizen kuni ju osafune and not Bizen kuni Osafune ju. The Hi fits the Eisho, now what length (nagasa) is the blade. It should be 63/66 cm. They usually made uchigatana Anyway, it is not a kazu uchimono Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Posted February 21, 2009 Hi, the length is ca 60 cm. Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 22, 2009 Author Report Posted February 22, 2009 Just for information, I have started a new thread under Nihonto named prectice in eisho because there are popping up more general questions in my little head, that are not directly related to the translation any more. As a facit I read the nagako as eisho gannen hachi gatsu kichi jitsu bizen no kuni jo osa fune tada mitsu Why it is signed like that, i try to find out in the other thread. Thank you for a good work. You have helped me a lot. Now I know about the facts and have to make up my mind what I personally think about it and the blade itself. Feels like diving into another time now. Quote
Jean Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 A bit on the short side but I have seen Tadamitsu this length Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 22, 2009 Author Report Posted February 22, 2009 Hi Jean, I have found an article (refered in the other thread) that staed that Bizen blades became shorter in 1504. but I do not know which size they had before... Gunther Quote
Jacques Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 Hi, Jean said: A bit on the short side but I have seen Tadamitsu this length You can see a longer one too Quote
ShuShinKan Posted February 22, 2009 Author Report Posted February 22, 2009 Hi all who still follow this thread! I have had contact with the current owner and he says the blade i 59 cm. He thinks it became shortened because of a law stating that it is forbidden to carry a sword longer than 60 cm. Any information about that available? On the http://www.sho-shin.com/sue4.htm there is tree of the tadamitsu group. When the listings of Tadamitsus (tadamistu(1)) contains the signatures (what is written in capital letters under each tadamitsu-characteristic) then I guess i can reduce the tadamitsus on two ! HIKOBEInoJO Tadamitsu i Eisho 1504 or HEIUEMONnoJO Tadamitsu i Eisho 1504 PLease correct me! Quote
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