mark or stain to blade

[oristt]

Hello all,

 

Can anyone tell if this mark/stain could be removed with out the need of a polish?

Thanks for your time kind regards Kyle

[pcfarrar]

Do you mean the black patches? Looks a bit like core steel. Need a better picture really to see what you mean.

[Bugyotsuji]

When you do take the new piccies, place an indicator pointing to the particular feature you are concerned about!

[oristt]

Hello everyone,

 

I have some more photos of the mark/stain in question.

As you all know its so very difficult to photograph the blade but practice makes perfect :lol:

 

The mark i am talking about is the dark stain in the middle of the blade on the first photo, and the light stain on the 2nd 3th photos is very difficult to see on the last two photos.

 

Thanks for looking please feel free to comment

DSC02444.pdf

DSC02443.pdf

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Kyle,

The dark mark in the 1st photo and in the other photo I looked at is shin-tetsu, core steel showing through. Surprising that it shows black in one photo and white in the others. Black is what I'd expect for shin-tetsu. Considering the bad kizu nearby in the picture it isn't surprising that the blade is tired. No cleaning or polish can help, and it doesn't really make sense to spend money on a blade in this condition anyway.

Sorry for bad news.

Grey

[Ronin 47]

I don't think that's shin-tetsu but rather Tobiyaki or Yubashiri. I would get a magnifying glass and see if its made up of nie.

 

Austin

[Mark Green]

I agree with Austin, I don't think it is core steel.

What age is the sword?

Very likely Tobiyaki.

Mark G

[nagamaki - Franco]

tobiyaki, yubashiri , hmm , Grey, has it correct, shin tetsu, a tired sword.

[Guido]

Yup, Yubashiri for sure. Probably mixed with meteorite iron, and I'm convinced it glows in the dark. And if you close your eyes and concentrate real hard, you can hear the Yubashiri singing ....

[Ted Tenold]

I don't think that's shin-tetsu but rather Tobiyaki or Yubashiri. I would get a magnifying glass and see if its made up of nie.

Austin

 

Austin, nie of even the finest type can be seen with the naked eye. Now *glasses* may be needed, but a magnifying glass on shintetsu will only magnify the shintetsu.

 

Kyle, sorry buddy, but this is clearly shintetsu. The first clue is the lack of any real "life" to the steel. But a larger clue is the fact that in the ji, and shinogi there is a profuse amount of ware and course grain coming through.

[Stever]

Yup, Yubashiri for sure. Probably mixed with meteorite iron, and I'm convinced it glows in the dark. And if you close your eyes and concentrate real hard, you can hear the Yubashiri singing ....

Gee, Guido...for a moderator, you sure are an ass!

[Stephen]

well here goes another thread deleted or locked.

 

If these conditions were poited out in the first place the buyer would not have to had this problem.

[nagamaki - Franco]

I'm certain Guido is fully capable of speaking for himself on these matters, none the less, the lesson that should be taken from the sarcastic reference eluding to yubashiri is the fact that yubashiri is one of those truly unique and rare features on a sword that is all too frequently misidentified. And, yet, the term yubashiri is often tossed about like an every day sword feature, which is terribly misleading.

Tobiyaki on the other hand is not something that is rare, especially on some shinto swords, and unlike yubashiri, tobiyaki is not considered all that desirable, because it tends to occur incidentally and even accidentally much of the time.

[Ronin 47]

Well I maybe wrong but in the first picture to the left of the so called shin-tetsu, I think I can see a profuse amount of ji-nie, and in my experience nie looks white and shiny in direct light and like black diamonds in indirect light so that's why I thought it could be Tobiyaki or Yubashiri (Yubashiri is a rare occurrence to say the least so in that regard I probably misspoke and should have just stated Tobiyaki). Also I know nie can be seen with the naked eye but it might be hard for a beginner to see the individual crystals and that's why I recommended the magnifying glass. Also in the other two pictures the so called shin-tetsu has a very white and shiny look to it like nie, which led me to that conclusion.Once again I could be wrong but I would like better pictures before jumping to any final conclusion either way.

 

Austin

[reinhard]

Gee, Guido...for a moderator, you sure are an ass!

 

Sometimes it takes an ass to kick butt and Guido is definitely qualified to kick the right spot for the right reason.

 

reinhard

[Stephen]

Stever wrote:Gee, Guido...for a moderator, you sure are an ass!

 

Sometimes it takes an ass to kick butt and Guido is definitely qualified to kick the right spot for the right reason.

 

reinhard

 

 

well just like the debate on kinds of nihonto to showato

 

one could make a case for wise ass smart ass and or kick ass

[Guido]

Gee, Guido...for a moderator, you sure are an ass!

Now, that's a classy reply! Anyhow, and just in case you're wondering: I don't have to make an effort to be obnoxious, it's a natural gift.

 

If you see a rusted Yugo driving by that's roaring like hell, wouldn't it be sensible to assume that the muffler has a few holes in it? Or is it more likely that it's tuned up with a 360 hp V 8 engine and Flow Master exhaust?

 

Learning from books is a great start, and we all have to start somewhere. But thinking that looking at a few pencil drawings, accompanied by a brief explanation, enables one to make authoritative statements is delusional. Only hands-on experience under qualified instruction makes one's own opinion qualified. Yes, everybody is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are equally valid.

 

Everybody who entertained the notion of the "activity" in the blade in question being Yubashiri should ask himself "when was the last time I recognized them as such in a Kantei situation? Can I identify Ji-nie, Chikei or Utsuri when holding a blade in hand? Do I know what Matsukawa-hada or Konuka-hada looks like? Do I feel confident to name at least three Kantei points for [let's say] Aoe blades?"

 

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Believe it or not, there are people among us that made a lot of sacrifices to study Nihontō under qualified tutelage. They even paid money for it. They paid more money (20,000 Yen for one hour per blade) to study famous swords at museums in Japan. They learn Japanese, take a vacation, and work for free for a sword shop just because there's a chance to study some high class blades. Their Nihontō library cost them a five figure amount.

 

And along comes a guy who even didn't spend a single dime on books because all's conveniently out there on the internet. Going to a sword show, being modest and asking the seasoned collectors and dealers a gazillion questions they are only too willing to answer is too much of a hassle. The swords he got are bought on eBay (the only place to buy national treasures for a song), and he sees Elvis in a patch of rust. But just to be on the safe side, he comes to NMB because basically he hasn't the faintest idea what he bought or what he's looking at, and - bummer! - those who actually know what they're talking about don't agree. Probably just because they're jealous, or, more likely, they are pretenders and imposters.

 

What I wrote so far is of course a gross over-simplification, and condensation of what I'm seeing here every so often. No, it's not directed at an individual or group participating in this very thread, although certain parallels can't be denied.

 

I'm into Nihontō for more than 30 years, and most of the early years I was kind of lost until I met people who took a pity on me and put me on the right track. I lived on and off in Japan for more than ten years not because I like Sushi so much (although I do), but because I did everything in my power to get as close to quality Nihon Tōken (and other Japanese art) as possible. That didn't come easy, but in hindsight, it was worth my effort. And I'm certainly not going to pretend that I'm still a novice in this field. Come on, if I didn't learn anything of substance in those 30 years, how stupid would I be?

 

Am I one of those mystical "experts"? According to my own, very high standards, the answer is "no". I know what I know, but more importantly, I know what I don't know. But I'm also not on the same level as the vast majority on this forum. Does this statement make me an elitist, pompous ass? Well, yeah, I won't deny it. And the older I get, the less gladly do I suffer fools, which might explain my sometimes sarcastic replies. But in most cases my twisted sense of humor is hard to digest anyhow.

 

I said it before, and will repeat: I don't enjoy ridiculing newbies that ask valid questions. If you go through my past posts, you'll be hard pressed to find evidence for that. But there's a huge difference between "could this maybe X" and "in my expert opinion you're all full of it", the latter coming from an obvious armchair expert. And yet again: there are a lot of people out there who have a passion for Japanese swords, but the circumstances of their life don't make it possible to go the full nine yards, or who are in a remote location that doesn't make it possible for them to access art swords. Not ever would I make fun of them. But I have a pretty good nose for make-believe, and God have mercy on you if I detect any of that BS and hand over the keyboard to my evil twin!

[Ford Hallam]

I thought the "yubashiri" quip was hilarious myself....but I'm also a sarcastic bastard .

 

In any case, why should moderators always be moderate? As my brother always says; " don't waste time being reasonable with unreasonable people"

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Stephen]

but I'm also a sarcastic bastard

 

seems to be a trend here the more intel you have the more one can be a sarcastic bastard, i guess the newbie got schooled huh, oh well a lession is a lession, to bad we cant be hit on the back with a bamboo rod,,,that would make the new guys learn right quick, me im too old and set in my ways to change,,,,see Brian is back hope all is well ....read my sign off.

[raaay]

Hi Guido

 

No wonder they say the pen is mightier than the sword.

 

cheers

 

ray

[sencho]

Gee, Guido...for a moderator, you sure are an ass!

 

.... sometimes sarcastic replies. But in most cases my twisted sense of humor is hard to digest anyhow.

 

 

you should see him on the last train home, after 47+ flasks of Nihonshu....!! :lol:

 

Cheers!!!

[Ted Tenold]

Well, I also have to admit; I thought Guido's response was danged funny, and I'm fairly sure it's not the first time Guido has been called "尻".

 

I think a *lot* of patience gets exercised on the NMB already. I know my first thoughts don't always get to print, because the benefit of the doubt gets granted. As moderators, I can also say that we make a firm attempt to not be the first ones to jump into a thread and answer questions because it shortens the interactions between members and can lead newbies (or others) to the false conclusion that moderators are "know-it-all's". But like Ford said, why should moderators be the only ones to temper their words, especially if others don't. How many threads go astray because posters don't "temper themselves"?

 

There were reponses given to the OP's question. Perhaps others here should subject themselves to the same self control the Moderators are expected to demonstrate. Otherwise, all I can say is "People who live in glass houses, should not throw Orgies".

 

This forum may not be for everyone, and I for one don't think it possible or prudent to even try to entertain "everyone" who chooses to visit. If anyone thinks Guido is being hard on folks.....he pales in comparison to many forms of education in the culture of Nihonto.

[kusunokimasahige]

Sorry but i need to clarify some things here... Guido put me on the lead to the cause of this spot on the sword.......

 

His yugo remark reminded me of a sword seller i once knew a long time ago...

 

he used to transport his swords in this car...

 

 

 

Now I am absolutely CONVINCED your sword was one of the swords which had the honour of being transported in this special delivery car...

 

Hence the stain.... it therefore is indeed a national treasure, and should be cherished as such.....

 

KM

[Mark Green]

Hi gang,

 

In this picture is a sword with a similal looking 'mark'. dark colored area, that in another light/angle looks shiny.

This I'm pretty sure is Tobiyaki. You can also follow the nice fat patch of Nie moving into the area of Tobiyaki, common for this fault.

In the first pic that started this question, it looked very much like the sword seen here.(imho)

The area on the subject blade may indeed be core steel, I for one would need better pics to say for sure, again, mho.

Just a thought.

Mark G

[reinhard]

Mark, I see your point, but the pic starting this thread is quite different from your example. Yubashiri and tobiyaki are no flaws per se and can be part of the ToKo's style, but the blade in question shows isolated patches of core-steel. Together with open grain they indicate an worn, over-polished blade.

 

What really worries me, is the question at the beginning: "How to remove this kind of "stain" without (having to pay for) polishing. This does not only show a fundamental lack of knowledge (which could be excused) but a strange attitude towards Nihon-To in general.

 

What makes NMB a difficult place at times is the "trinity" of dusty armchair-experts, who never left their homes, citing from their limited (and sometimes outdated) stock of books as if it were the holy bible, semi-educated dealers with intent to keep their clients as ignorant as they are themselves, using this board as a freeware pit-stop for translation and information and trying to define terms newly, if necessary, and finally, newbies, who can't cope with the idea of Nihon-To being a more complex subject than just a romantic Samurai myth. I can well understand Guido, Ted and others, who dedicated many years or decades of their lives in order to come close of understanding Nihon-To, loosing their temper every now and then when confronted with one of the specimens mentioned above and, even worse, when members of the "trinity" try to build an unholy alliance against competence. Since ignorants are not allowed to be shot in the forehead anymore, sarcasm is is the only way left to face them.

Anway, this talk will go on forever and I really wish, the knowledgeable heads on this board won't lose patience, for NMB still has a chance of being a good thing.

 

reinhard (prepared for eternity>attachment)

[Stephen]

[

Since ignorant's are not allowed to be shot in the forehead anymore, sarcasm is the only way left to face them.

 

this most likely be canned but it needs to be said.

 

first off I want to say I have the utmost respect for knowledge acquired by both Reinhard and G-man, yes you have spent countless hours in study, your learning and retaining is great, some don't have that retention or experience, the point I'm getting to is, so your great we get it, its thinking that your so much greater and experienced than lowly beginners that makes us wonder what it is about that that brings out the above kind of /quote.

Freeloaders are everywhere so we get come down on all because of that?

 

from the way I see the world problems are from this kinda thinking,

unholy alliance against competence

 

 

no unholy aliance ,,just a request to be decent to new learners, if taking baby steps do we knock them over or give a helping hand

 

dont know what else can be said, have the last word its been a learning experience.

[Brian]

Brief reply.

I am not locking this one or deleting any comments. Reason is that (like any forum I have ever been on) things build up naturally over time, come to a head and then everyone needs to get it all out, so that things can calm down and go back to normal again. So may as well let ppl speak their mind (within reason)

I have noted all the comments. Not going to interfere, as I think many valid comments have been made on all sides.

I am never going to exclude beginners here. This has always been about people learning from the basics up to as advanced as they want to take it. By the same token, people need to realise that when you take a flying guess or state something like it is a fact..there are people here with vast experience that are going to fact check and correct. This is necessary so that we don't teach false info.

On a counter point, I do ask those advanced members one thing. It is one thing to state that "yabashiri" is a ridiculous conclusion...but surely a really good opportunity to then go on and explain exactly what it is, and maybe show an example..or do a brief post on it so that people learn from it. That way the point is made, and it becomes educational too.

 

Other than that, all points are noted. I can't get into this now too much due to the health issue. But I will say that I know there are personality clashes here. They are on EVERY forum. To me it makes absolutely no sense at all to withdraw over these. Far easier to just ignore those people or focus on the group of members that you fit in with and and are able to assist.

There are thousands of people reading this forum monthly, and if you are making a difference to some of them, that is what counts. This goes for advanced students as well as novices and those inbetween. Help can come from all levels...from advanced articles all the way to simply posting pics requested.

If you don't get on with someone..so what? There are others out there. On another forum I recently used the "ignore" feature for the first time. Don't know why it took me 10 years to start using it :lol: Less stress.

 

Take it easy all, and let's get over it so that we can get back to educational fun. I know I could certainly use less stress right now.

 

Brian

[Stever]

Hi Brian,

 

Sorry for starting this crap again, but the issue I have here is that it's all well and good to put persons with whom you have conflicts on ignore, but when said persons are also among the most knowledgeable on the subject it seems a lot like cutting off your nose to spite your face. While I can understand the frustration, needing to put site mods on ignore seems a little extreme. Seems to me like there are 2 points of view here with respect to moderators: either that they shouldn't be questioned due to their position on the site and experience (implied here is: no matter what they say), or they should use their position of authority on the site with respect to all other users. The remarks regarding questions from newbies are besides the point - it's not so much the newbies asking questions I am concerned with as those that don't post and other lurkers that haven't even signed up. I suspect that these groups are much larger than the posting community and deserve consideration. As to remarks regarding knowledge, backgrounds, and desires of those that visit this site, I don't think anyone here has enough information to make such a call.

 

Also remember that not everyone here has English as a first language, and sarcasm (no matter how well-intended) may be lost on a large portion of visitors.

 

Finally, to add to your counter point: I would think if yubashiri is such a ridiculous suggestion it would be worthwhile to explain why. This has been explained now, but still not thoroughly and not until after my post stirred things up. I'd love to contribute more to this site, but knowing the disdain with which my level of experience and knowledge is viewed around here (especially by moderators) prevents me from ever doing so.

 

cheers,

/steve

[Brian]

While waiting for the pain meds to kick in......

I wasn't suggesting putting anyone specifically on ignore. It is just that if someone has such a personality clash with someone that they wish to withdraw, that is always an option. I would of course prefer people not to do that. Yes...an advanced member putting a novice on ignore or vice versa isn't productive, and I'd rather people work out their issues. But I also don't want people leaving either.

Frankly, it's far better for people to understand that comments are often made generally to address several issues that have built up, and that although they may seem harsh, are seldom more than blunt points made to improve an issue that has been noted and aren't inteded to be personal attacks.

It really all comes down to the impersonal nature of the 'net. Meeting people will often finally allow you to understand how they express themselves and they are usually nothing like you imagine. I would like to see more constructive criticism, and at the same time I would like to see people that are maybe not as advanced clearly point out that their answer is a rough guess and not stated as fact.

Yes..it's a lot to get to, and find a balance. But the only way we can do that is by sticking around, learning, and helping where we can. Nobody here has any issue at all with novices at all..let's make that perfectly clear (they had better not..I am one)

The only issue here I think is statements being made as fact that are perhaps misleading. We aren't blocking beginners...just trying to make sure the info they take in is legit and valid.

We welcome people making an effort. It is when someone says "this is XXX" without saying "I am not an expert at all...but could it be XXX possibly?" that these issues arise.

That...and as I said before....constructive criticism. All issues I will be working on over time.

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

I am also a novice and have been helped by a lot of the more esteemed members with any question i had, no matter how dumb it was.

 

KM