Whats this ? Hataraki or ?

[Link]

I've been trying to figure out what I'm seeing on this blade (I'm new at this game so flame away I can take it) I'm seeing Itame & Mokume in the Hada but there are these lines that are wider and more visible the what I'm calling the Itame Mokume grain. is this the Hataraki ? If it is does it have a name such as Midare Utsuri or Yubashiri ? If these pics. are to small I can enlarge them a bit.

Thanks

[Link]

Is my question to stupid to respond to ? Or is the question not clear ? Or are you guys forcing a newbi to do his own research !! Any way I have been comparing my sword to the Connoisseurs book of Japanese Swords, The Samurai Sword book by John Yumoto along with pics found on the web and I just can't figure out what those lines are they don't seem to be a flaw but Ji are is listed as coarse, these lines do not seem coarse from the hamon line to the shinogi but from the shinogi to the mune they appear more pronounced I'm thinking this could have something to do with the polish. The lines only appear in a few places and do not match up side to side. I have only seen 3 blades in person the 2 I own and one was a real treasure but to bad when I saw the treasure I had less of a clue than I do now. Anyway the blade studying I'm doing with the books is great and it seems that with the detail and the overwhelming names and descriptions given to the Jigane and hada of the blades there would be a term for the lines I'm seeing. If I'm being a complete idiot someone please tell me.

Thanks

[loiner1965]

Is my question to stupid to respond to ? Or is the question not clear ? Or are you guys forcing a newbi to do his own research !! Any way I have been comparing my sword to the Connoisseurs book of Japanese Swords, The Samurai Sword book by John Yumoto along with pics found on the web and I just can't figure out what those lines are they don't seem to be a flaw but Ji are is listed as coarse, these lines do not seem coarse from the hamon line to the shinogi but from the shinogi to the mune they appear more pronounced I'm thinking this could have something to do with the polish. The lines only appear in a few places and do not match up side to side. I have only seen 3 blades in person the 2 I own and one was a real treasure but to bad when I saw the treasure I had less of a clue than I do now. Anyway the blade studying I'm doing with the books is great and it seems that with the detail and the overwhelming names and descriptions given to the Jigane and hada of the blades there would be a term for the lines I'm seeing. If I'm being a complete idiot someone please tell me.

Thanks

patience my friend......someone more knowledgeble than myself will be along soon

[Brian]

Impossible to really tell from the pics. Better to see it in hand.

I am inclined to think it isn't hataraki. Maybe just part of the hada...open or coarse grain. Or it could be the skin steel is thinner there and the core steel is showing through a bit.

Is the sword polished down a lot? Compare the thickness at the machi and the area of the blade in front of that.

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

Although the pictures are limited as well as my knowlege I agree with Brian in that this looks like coarse hada from the forging process. A not uncommon characteristic especially where there is masame hada. Even swords by master craftsmen can have this phenomenon. John

[Link]

Impossible to really tell from the pics. Better to see it in hand.

I am inclined to think it isn't hataraki. Maybe just part of the hada...open or coarse grain. Or it could be the skin steel is thinner there and the core steel is showing through a bit.

Is the sword polished down a lot? Compare the thickness at the machi and the area of the blade in front of that.

 

Brian

 

Not sure what would make polished down a lot as I have no back ground but the Nagasa is 71 cm, the thickness at the Machi is 7.5 mm at the Sori 6.5 mm and the Yokote it's 6 mm. heres a few more pics. I'm making an attempt to be able to tell a really good blade from an OK blade I know it will take a lot longer then I ever thought bit stuff that comes real easy is never much fun. It seems there are many traits that can be found in both I guess over all consistenacy in a blade is very good trait as long as it has the proper bells and whistles.

Thanks for your help

[John A Stuart]

Yes, no worries. Coarse hada. John

[Chishiki]

I could be wrong but I would say that the sword has been polished a number of times and what you are seeing is 'core steel'. It presents as pools of different colour steel, usually darker and without much grain structure. This can happen on 1, Old swords that have been polished a lot. 2. Some swordsmiths are noted for using thin outer steel in their forging such as Hizen Tadayoshi school, and core steel is exposed more easily on their swords 3. Later swords that have been badly polished by amateurs. Most swords have what is called 'Niku', that is that the sides of the blade between the cutting edge and shinogi are not flat. Bad polishers may polish this area down flat, exposing the core steel. There are so many variables with swords but it is either, 'core steel' or course hada due to poor forging. Whatever it is it is not a desirable trait but if it is core steel we would use the expression that the sword is 'tired' from polishing. If not core steel it maybe some feature of a particular school or smith. I remember having a sword polished once that came back with what I thought was core steel showing everywhere, I was horrfied. It turned out that it was just a poorly constructed sword from Kaga school, their steel can appear 'slaggy' for want of a better word. My advice, keep the sword and show it to someone knowledgeable in the future. Sorry for being vague. It appears in good condition and maybe a good study piece for you. You are doing the right thing. Seeing features in a sword you have and then studying them. good luck. Mark PS, why not post some pics of the boshi, an overall shot so we can see sugata, and a pic of the nakago. Someone may have a try at giving you an age of the sword.

[Link]

I could be wrong but I would say that the sword has been polished a number of times and what you are seeing is 'core steel'. It presents as pools of different colour steel, usually darker and without much grain structure. This can happen on 1, Old swords that have been polished a lot. 2. Some swordsmiths are noted for using thin outer steel in their forging such as Hizen Tadayoshi school, and core steel is exposed more easily on their swords 3. Later swords that have been badly polished by amateurs. Most swords have what is called 'Niku', that is that the sides of the blade between the cutting edge and shinogi are not flat. Bad polishers may polish this area down flat, exposing the core steel. There are so many variables with swords but it is either, 'core steel' or course hada due to poor forging. Whatever it is it is not a desirable trait but if it is core steel we would use the expression that the sword is 'tired' from polishing. If not core steel it maybe some feature of a particular school or smith. I remember having a sword polished once that came back with what I thought was core steel showing everywhere, I was horrfied. It turned out that it was just a poorly constructed sword from Kaga school, their steel can appear 'slaggy' for want of a better word. My advice, keep the sword and show it to someone knowledgeable in the future. Sorry for being vague. It appears in good condition and maybe a good study piece for you. You are doing the right thing. Seeing features in a sword you have and then studying them. good luck. Mark PS, why not post some pics of the boshi, an overall shot so we can see sugata, and a pic of the nakago. Someone may have a try at giving you an age of the sword.

 

OK a little Kantei for you guys, the sword has NBTHK papers and is signed by one of the ranked smiths in Jon Yumoto's book. I'll take some pics and see how ya do.

[Chishiki]

ahhh, so the newbie tests the not so newbies. Consider the challenge 'On'. You sly dog. (a term of endearment in your case). Mark. PS I give you fair warning that presently I have no idea, and may miss by a long shot. Always prepared to have try though. My initial thoughts were Mino den but I may about face when I see additional pics.

[Link]

Here we go, I know with the pics really suck taking good pics seem almost impossible and I didn't want to suck up a bandwidth but if there's questions about boshi or whatever I'll do my best to fill in what the pics don't show. I wasn't sure about including the nakago. Oh and I've been called much worse than a sly dog,,,,,Good Luck

[Link]

A few more pics

[John A Stuart]

Hi Larry, A papered blade, so, if you want others to have a go, you need to provide; Hi rez pics of, the whole blade, macro shots of the hamon and hada, pics of the nakago, with the mei fudged, if there. These little snips just aren't enough. I have some idea generally, but, photos over the web leave a lot to be desired even hi rez. John

[Link]

Hi Larry, A papered blade, so, if you want others to have a go, you need to provide; Hi rez pics of, the whole blade, macro shots of the hamon and hada, pics of the nakago, with the mei fudged, if there. These little snips just aren't enough. I have some idea generally, but, photos over the web leave a lot to be desired even hi rez. John

 

Kinda what I thought, I will figure out how post a link to an image hosting site but since it's Feb. 14th I gotta get my ass out of this chair if I know whats good for me !! mean while It's any ones guess at this point,

Thanks

[Chishiki]

Ok, spoke too soon. I see nothing to suggest shinto mino as I thought I did with the 1st few pics. I thought the shinogi ji had masame but appears not. When you take photos can you angle the blade so we actually see the hamon and not the hadori from the polisher. You can show a pic of the tang with the mei covered somehow, and a photo of the hamon about the machi, and a better one of the boshi. Really difficult with those photos. Anyway I'll wait for the pics and not dig myself further into the hole. Mark

[Link]

Game over ! I tried posting Hi-rez pics to a hosting site but the site just kept down sizing the pics. So heres a few more probably wont do any good but I'd like to here any body's guess at this point, maybe some day I'll be able to make a stab (pun intended) at this game.

Thanks for playing along.

[John A Stuart]

My my. I'll try anyway. john

 

 

Ishido school. perhaps the Fukuoka branch.

 

[pcfarrar]

My guess:

 

 

Echizen Shimosaka

 

[Link]

John & Peter both are Kuni iri yoku except wrong province (best I can tell anyway) care to go again....or do you want to the goods !

[John A Stuart]

'Kuni iri yoku' I understand, but, 'wrong province'!!? I'll wait. John

[Link]

'Kuni iri yoku' I understand, but, 'wrong province'!!? I'll wait. John

 

The way I read the meaning of Kuni iri yoku was correct period and correct province so both Peter and yourself are correct in the period. I'm taking liberty with a language, tradition and sword smarts I know nothing about I hope I'm not offending any one. But the more I learn the better it gets.

Thanks

[reinhard]

On the screen ji-hada looks like konuka-hada to me. This would make it a Hizen-To. Without seeing hamon itself (only kessho masking) and without knowing the measurements of the blade (length, sori), any further guessing is highly speculative. Maybe I'll make a fool of myself, but telling by the hada alone, I don't think it's mainline Hizen (TADAYOSHI/TADAHIRO) but some "next to" artist in the lines of MASAHIRO or YUKIHIRO.

 

reinhard (prepared to face your laughter)

[reinhard]

Oh, and BTW: Pretending to be a newbie is not very credible anymore.

 

reinhard

[45blues]

hi Larry, that's a beautiful sword, congrats!

I'll zip my mouth up for a while.

 

 

CJ

[Link]

Oh, and BTW: Pretending to be a newbie is not very credible anymore.

 

reinhard

 

71 cm length. 2 cm sori Pretending, not my style, I didn't know Kissaki from a Kawasaki 3 weeks ago I bought sword bought some books and here I am having some fun. I won't use "newbie" any more maybe Dumb-Ass will work for awhile it probably fits me better any way and there's no way you'll be able to strip of that rank !

[Chishiki]

Hi Reinhard, I think the Hizen attribution is credible based on the info available, expecially if the file marks on the tang are kesho, which I think is what I see. ?? I thought waki-hizen, not mainline Tadayoshi. The few Tadayoshi blades I have seen don't have that course nie and the jihada is much more consistent throughout. I did have a masahiro wakishashi once that had a similar hamon but it was never papered. If those file marks are kesho and tang ubu...I'll go waki hizen like you suggest. To sum it up.....I'm in the dark.

[Link]

Hi Reinhard, I think the Hizen attribution is credible based on the info available, expecially if the file marks on the tang are kesho, which I think is what I see. ?? I thought waki-hizen, not mainline Tadayoshi. The few Tadayoshi blades I have seen don't have that course nie and the jihada is much more consistent throughout. I did have a masahiro wakishashi once that had a similar hamon but it was never papered. If those file marks are kesho and tang ubu...I'll go waki hizen like you suggest. To sum it up.....I'm in the dark.

 

I wouldn't say "in the dark" you guys are so close given with what you were working with I'd say Dozen or for sure Jun Dozen. Well done ! Does waki-bizen mean the same as wakimono ? If so I think your right on from what I've read. The sword is signed by Hiroshige of Shitahara school not a great school or great smiths and the smiths there seemed to copy other smiths work so to get the smith & school correct from bad pics over the net would seem almost impossible.

Thanks to every one for helping me learn some more.

[Link]

hi Larry, that's a beautiful sword, congrats!

I'll zip my mouth up for a while.

 

 

CJ

 

Thanks for kind words !

[John A Stuart]

Waki-Bizen means a school of smiths that are loosely affiliated with Bizen style, but, are influenced by other styles as well. Wakimono means any side branch of any style that does not precisely conform to a mainline school. So, Shitahara school. Bizen influence for sure. That is why I went Ishido school, because of the Bizen attributes, but, what convinced me most was the midare-komi boshi. Oh well, maybe next time. John

[reinhard]

Well, I've got what I deserved, guessing wildly with not enough substantial informations. Since there's a confusion about the meaning of "waki", I'll try to bring some light in there. "Waki", meaning "beyond a mainline", can only be applied, when there IS a mainline school. As in HizenTo. There was a mainline-tradition (TADAYOSHI/TADAHIRO) and surrounding schools, called "Waki-Hizen". It is the same with Goto-school of Tosogu-makers. There was shirobei-mainline, represented by the heads of the family. Artists, trained in Goto-school and working for them elsewhere, can be called Waki-Goto. It is different, however, with Bizen-school of swordmaking. It divided into many famous, independent groups at a very early stage, leaving only local "mainline head-masters", such as KANEMITSU for the Osafune group, but there were artists with supreme skills like CHOGI, working at the same time at the same place, who can't be called "waki". Therefore no such thing like "waki Bizen" exists.

 

Going back to the sword in question. Bushu Shitahara-school worked quite secluded in Musashi province during Muromachi-period before the rise of Edo as the new capital in "their province". Important feature of Shitahara workmanship is strong emphasis on mokume-hada. Ji-Hada of some Shitahara blades has a resemblance to Dewa Gassan swords including ayasugi-hada. Others are made of pure mokume-hada (which is very rare in general) and will easily lead you astray (see my silly guess). However, congrats to a very interesting sword, Larry. You seem to be a quick learner.

 

reinhard