Need a breakthrough on sugata

[bnacorda]

So I've been buying more advance books and going to the in-person sword meetings specifically to get better at kantei. I have been learning and remembering the terminology and getting the hang of identifying key points of kantei namely 1) sugata 2) jigane 3) Hamon/boshi 4)nakago. Been reading Markus' kantei series a little slowly. So here's the problem, when it comes to seeing the blades in person, unless its a naginataoshi which will clearly be sakizori, everything looks torii-sori to me. It like when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Specially in kantei when you can't look at the entire blade with the bare nakago. Any tips to get pass this? its getting frustrating.

Edited October 19, 2021 by bnacorda
term

[Franco]

1 hour ago, bnacorda said:

So here's the problem, when it comes to seeing the blades in person, unless its a naginataoshi which will clearly be sakizori, everything looks torii-sori to me. It like when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Specially in kantei when you can't look at the entire blade with the bare nagasa. Any tips to get pass this? its getting frustrating.

 

To begin with http://meiboku.info/guide/form/sori/index.htm . Additionally, if not mistaken, I think that perhaps you intended and meant to write nakago, and not nagasa. Correct?

 

This lesson really requires laying out swords from all the different time periods in order to study the similarities and differences in shape, and then, actually going sword by sword to measure and determine precisely where the sori of each is. It is immensely helpful to belong to a sword club or study group for such an endeavor. Otherwise, work with what you have, and practice. This would make for a good study session. 

 

I once knew an auto mechanic that said he could fix anything with just a hammer and screwdriver. 

 

[paulb]

Ben,

There are two problems in trying to assess shape. Firstly the differences can be quite subtle. Illustrations tend to exaggerate the feature to make a point, in reality identifying traits requires a degree of concentration. There is a tory of a master telling his pupils that a sword had to be later than they thought because it had saki-zori. None of them could see it but when they checked it was there but less than 2mm deep.

The second issue is that one a blade is shortened the sugata changes. koshi-zori can become tori-zori, fumbari is lost and the whole character of the blade changes. You have to see the naked blade and then try and think how it looked when ubu. This isn't always practical.

To start with look at the more obvious features such as how much the width of the blade decreases from hamachi to kissaki, the thickness of the blade, the size of the kissaki. Once you have your eye in and focus based on those points the others will follow.

[Rivkin]

I would say that there are a few sugata which are period-specific (Heian, Nambokucho, Kambun shinto and shinshinto) and the rest actually sort of appears similar to one another, if the blade is cut down a lot. That's a reason you can get the same blade papering to Kamakura, Muromachi and early shinto.

Otherwise you have koshi-zori of the early Muromachi and Kamakura which are also similar to each other, but kissaki tends to be different, so you have to start considering chubby kissaki or ko-kissaki as well as how transition happens from ha in the blade to boshi (it tends to differ through periods), and things like typical kasane for a period. Current NBTHK is very high strung on things like hira niku and kasane, but there are plenty of detractors of such approach treating it as a counter-reaction to 1960s when Dr. Sato was issuing Kamakura period's judgements right and left to blades with a Nambokucho o-kissaki.

 

 

[Geraint]

Dear Ben.

 

Truly it is said, "Do not seek a breakthrough for mist clears but slowly".  

 

If you have the opportunity then see swords with someone who knows more than you, look at websites which feature good descriptions of swords and try to see what they describe, exercise much patience and then one day you will get one right.

Just to make you laugh I once spent hours on one of mine which I was certain was koshi sori when in koshirae and couldn't see it when the blade was bare.  Took me a long time to work out that the habaki was shaped to generate the apparent koshi sori and the blade was tori sori.  Felt a complete fool.

 

Keep it up!

 

All the best.

[bnacorda]

ah, in my frustration, I kept typing nagasa instead of nakago. Thats how crazy I've been obsessed over this! Gentlemen, thank you for the tips! I need to open it up a little bit and not focus so much on this. You all make very good points in looking at the overall shape including kissaki. I think I've been methodically breaking this down and concentrating on this most basic quality to the point of frustration. Even when looking at the illustrations in the book(s) (where I do know its more pronounced) sometimes I can't see it. So I've been opening the different books to just train my eye and looking at the shapes and description. I'm glad to know that it might be a matter of training the eye and viewing different examples.. At least, in the paper kantei, I'm getting shape aligned to the period correctly but it all goes to the crapper shortly thereafter. :-) Anyway, patience and diligence is key. In the next meeting, I will have to walk around and ask the more senior members to help point out the line of thinking in assessing these points. Again thank you!!

[Ooitame]

The last Samurai quote, "less mind". Best of luck in your journey into the knowledge on Nihonto.