Fake patina?

[jct3602]

I like this piece, but the patina just seems ???.  Although it is wet looking under the right light from an angle, and under 20x magnification the patina is a very dark brown, it seems too uniform.  Would appreciate feedback.  dimensions are 8.2x8.1 cm but the thickness is very irregular;  rim varies from .354 to .175 cm and the area around the nakago hitsu .27 to .32 cm.  Will send pictures in 2 batches and try to show the interior walls of the sukashi.  All pictures taken inside but indirect exterior light.

 

Thanks, 

john twineham

[jct3602]

2nd set of pictures.

john twineham

[rkg]

John,

Its pretty shiny so I'd posit that its waxed.

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Peter Bleed]

I agree with rkg. It seems heavily waxed but with the heavy pitting, it may have been seriously covered with red rust.

P

[jct3602]

Thank you both!

    You may be quite correct.   I was suspicious, but not about waxing, more about a really good late period patinating solution; the reason why I tried to give a shot that showed some of the wall of the sukashi cuts was with that thought in mind.

    I just left a message with Michael Bell, who primarily makes swords but also tsuba, etc., and asked about the waxing.  He and his lead apprentice both have seen the item in hand, and did not mention wax, but I did not ask.  They both did say it had a wonderful patina.  I have 2 more available resources to show it to who might have some thoughts; one will be next weekend (Stephen Strauch), so will fill you in when I get Michael's response, and later when Stephen sees it in hand.

    Once again, thank you.

 

john twineham

[Grey Doffin]

Hi John,

I am a bit bothered that an iron tsuba that comes across as being of great age shows no evidence of having been mounted: no divots or copper inserts in the nakago-ana to adjust the fit or cushion the nakago from wear.

Grey

[jct3602]

Very good point Grey, and one that I had wondered about.  As an alternative, if you look at the depression opposite the kozuka hitsu, it looks like the piece was hammered thinner, possibly to spread out and thus compress the nakago hitsu.  Since it is only .2 cm thick, perhaps the feeling was that chiselling divots in would not do very much and be risky, the same with copper inserts that might get easily dislodged.  Just a random thought.  Michael Bell says that the depression was certainly an intentional hammer stroke, not a bruise.

 

Thanks again!

John

[Ford Hallam]

I agree with Grey, I have my own suspicions about this piece.

 

Despite it appearing to have suffered a fair amount of corrosion it reveals to signs we'd expect of a non-homogeneous piece of tatara produced iron.  Just to clarify, pre-industrial iron in Japan that was forged etc. ( cast iron is a very different beast with it's own characteristics) was at no point a molten uniform mass, so it all looks a bit like filo pastry in terms of internal structure, of varying degrees of refinement, naturally. Here there are no signs of layering, inclusions and the like. In fact the basic material seems remarkably uniform....modern!, one might suggest.

 

[jct3602]

Thanks Ford:

      I agree; something with real age and made with uniformity of metal, consistent patina, and little or no corrosion would seem impossible; modern metal with an interesting patination process could easily be the case, so Occam's Razor rules.  Would appreciate your opinion on the following if you would; Edo?  pictures taken outdoors in sunlight.

 

Yours,

John

[Spartancrest]

I am not so fast thinking it is modern or waxed, I recently bough a small sized guard that at first sight looked too glossy [overexposed lighting in the photo] the secondary image was 'normal'. After I received it, under heaps of grime and flaked rust I discovered it was in fact 'glossy' and not waxed. I believe it is a yakite finish. It has been mounted at least once [see top of nakago-ana second image] I have seen many modern fakes and I don't think this is one.

 

If you believe your example is waxed - boil in water for a few minutes, won't hurt the piece as long as you dry it properly. Testing is always better than guessing.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi John

 

Your second piece is quite different. I can discern traces of irregular dendritic structure (modern material would be pretty uniform) in the breakdown of the surface due to corrosion. The surface corrosion is reasonably varied, I see one or two fissure like folds just visible, again due to corrosion. One such fold is to be seen trailing off the bottom outer edge of the kogai hitsi in the top image. Another at 10:30 on the same image near the mimi.

 

And the wear around the kogai hitsu and nakago-ana is a bit like broken off stone, again exactly what I'd expect from corroding and friable old metal. Compared to modern iron/steel, which is quite pliable when in an unhardened state, old forge weld consolidated sponge iron (tatara material etc.) is somewhat crumbly. I use, almost exclusively now, old mid 19th century finely wrought iron in my own work, and even the best material, which looks flawless to the naked eye, has a grainy structure under the chisel and can tear and break in ways that are simply not the same as homogeneous steel. Actually this is a good example to contrast with the first piece to illustrate those subtleties that distinguish modern from pre-industrial iron.

 

I've attached a microphotograph of some dendritic structure in a modern steel as a guid to what can be seen on this old tsuba. Uniformity is of course the aim in modern metallurgy whereas pre-industrial stuff is inevitably much less ordered, even when relatively well processed.

[Sunny]

It looks to be that they went heavy with an abrasive high grain wet sand till they got to a point to then change to a 2000 wet dry that had a red grit instead of dark grey and they hand buffed the rest of the rust and the colour of the grit into the actual iron itself.

That's why the inside still looks to have a normal texture of decay and rust age with a bit of the original iron colour peeking out.

I think this piece is legit.

They just messed the top layer of iron.

Or I could be completely mistaken.

I happen to really suck with my judgement lately.

 

[roger dundas]

"Sunny"- but at least with the courage to put your opinion out there for others to consider.

To be honest I wanted to ask why would anyone bother to fake the ageing of the first one (there could be many reasons) but backed away when I saw who else was commenting. I lacked a little courage,

Roger j

[Spartancrest]

What opinions can be gleaned from this piece?   https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1008381764  or  https://zenmarket.jp/auction.aspx?itemCode=b1008381764

It shows many of the same surface features. If it is fake they went to extraordinary trouble, it is not something you are going to mount on a sword of course. At 2.1mm in thickness there is not a lot of meat left - any thinner and it would make a dandy razor.

Sunny: Roger is right too many people are hesitant to give an opinion for fear of getting it wrong, some threads go unanswered for days or even weeks for that reason. Glad you stepped up. All opinions can be seen as stepping stones - we often don't know where they will lead to.

PS, 'Mistaken' is my middle name!

 

[roger dundas]

To my mind Dale, your continuing input with your evaluations have been outstanding. But I miss those from our knowledgeable Japanese contributor who recently took leave from this forum, unfortunately.

Roger j

[Surfson]

There appear to me to be an increasing number of guards made to look like old tosho or katchushi guards.  They are showing up in the Yahoo.jp auctions.  I think that the forgers (pun intended!) are getting better and better at simulating the ravages of great age.  I also agree with Grey and take comfort when I see convincing evidence of previous mounting, including not only sekigane and modifications of the nakago hitsu ana but also signs of irregular staining or wear on the seppa dai where the seppa once resided.  

[Ford Hallam]

Not give give anyone pointers on faking great age on a tosho tsuba but the most efficient way is to start with already severely corroded 2 or 3mm mild steel plate. This sort of material is readily available from scrap yards or in old abandoned farm buildings and doesn't really take many years of exposure to the elements to create. The 'appearance of age' is a great deceiver.

 

Strip all the rust off in a dilute bath of hydrochloric acid, cut out your patterns and with the judicial use of a jeweller pendant-drill hand piece or dremmel tool and suitable ball burs the freshly cut edges can be quite quickly and effectively shaped to simulated the corrosion pattern of the rest of the plate. And finish by applying a new patina. I actually made two this way in a day many years ago when living on a farm in Cornwall. I added sekigane, beat them about a bit and left them in a stone wall for a year. Then I recovered them and 'restored' them. They fooled two prominent London dealers at the time, when  friend of mine presented them for appraisal.

 

My point is, it's really not difficult or time consuming to create this sort of object, and in some parts of the world even $50 a week might keep a family fed. So it's absolutely worth doing if the internet makes their sale a possibility.

 

Obviously the papered Higo fakes I make are more time consuming and require a bit more expertise but I manage to get really good money for them....so

 

Maybe I should diversify and do Umetada now, probably better money. 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Ford - you just can't trust anything at face value. I made a Ko-sukashi back in the 80s from a suitably thin plate of steel, cut the pattern out by hand [I had more patience then] took a lump hammer and beat it on some flaky sandstone to get a good texture. Left it in the garden for a week, washed and patinated it and was offered $450 for it [not a lot of money now but that was a weeks wages in the 80s] I didn't sell it, eventually gave it away to someone else years later. 

 

Bob.

These off the shelf antiques turn up day after day - and no shortage of buyers!  https://www.jauce.com/user/dj2hmyuc

I wonder if they are made from old 44 gallon drums? 

[roger dundas]

I thought that possibly not many were interested in these 'clunky' old tsuba but apparently a few are ?

 This one is 65.5 x 60.5 x 3.8 and as I have a katana sized version c 80 x 80 that is generally in excellent condition, then the condition of this smaller version would seem to be caused by neglect, being stored in less than benign conditions? Do they dig them up from old battlegrounds ?

I thought that as it had remnant fine brass wire inlay that it would be kosher and the asking price of around US$50 was reasonable'

The recurring argument about a $50 tsuba versus a $50 bottle of whisky comes to mind.

But the all up cost was much more than that as it turned out. Purchased in March 2020 from Japan it got caught up in the postage quagmire caused by the Covid virus. Eleven months later- February 2021 it arrived after a further postage imposition. It wasn't cheap in the end at all and was the price of a very expensive Scotch whisky.

The question is: Is something like this worth having around ?

[Spartancrest]

A question my wife asks about me, almost daily! 

[Ford Hallam]

I suppose the question for you, Dale, is are you retro, vintage or authentically antique?  Personally I feel somewhat vintage in need of restoration 

[roger dundas]

If you don't mind me asking Ford, have you completely recovered from your heart set back ? It is certainly always good to get your input here with your not to be surpassed 'hands on' knowledge. Loved your 'ginko' tsuba posted here - as did stacks of other members.

Roger j

[Spartancrest]

Ford 

I am definitely on the rusty side. Somewhere along the scale "We buy junk - We sell antiques"

[My wife has come to realize that my short comings are as nothing to her previous two marriages - and she is getting too old for a fourth!]

 

Ford we all hope you have many more years of wisdom to impart.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Roger, thank you for asking. I'm doing better but the nasty little bout of covid I had in January continues to hobble me.

But I've recently had a fair bit of medical support and am looking forward to a somewhat easier lung function and I'm learning to pace my efforts more sensibly so that I can stay the race, so to speak.

 

And thanks Dale, I certainly do intend to stick around, lots of work yet to do and things to learn.

 

[roger dundas]

You certainly have been in the wars Ford! Didn't know about the Covid as well so good luck with your lung improvement.

Just by the way- I trust I don't sound sycophantic ? I am a few weeks off 82, with one foot in the grave, nothing to gain but just acknowledging the very high value of the input from you lot. Keeps so many of us interested in tomorrow.

Roger j

[Ford Hallam]

Thank you Roger, it's always heartening to hear that one's efforts are appreciated.