Washiziki Thoughts

[Corry]

Does anybody have any idea when this sword was made? Is it a put together? Can you tell by certain techniques on when the blade was made? Looks oil quenched to me. I checked the mei and either it id too old or never signed. Thoughts appreciated.

[Corry]

52 minutes ago, Torvald said:

Does anybody have any idea when this sword was made? Is it a put together? Can you tell by certain techniques on when the blade was made? Looks oil quenched to me. I checked the mei and either it id too old or never signed. Thoughts appreciated.

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Torvald,

I don't think that it's oil quenched as it isn't a war-time blade. There is some activity in the metal which is evidence of it being a folded blade, though this isn't very prominent and that might point to it being a shinshinto blade - so late 1700's to the Meiji restoration (1863) maybe earlier than that based on the colour of the patina on the tang.

 

Most older blades are a "put together" in the sense that they don't come in their original fittings as these tended to get damaged and wear out over time and so got replaced as required. Looking at the butt end of the tang, this looks like it might have been messed with to make the sword fit the hilt rather than the hilt being made for the blade but that doesn't look like it was done recently. The usual tell for this is multiple holes in the tang and hilt. How does everything fit? If the scabbard is tight but not excessively so and there's no rattling with the tsuba then the chances are the blade and fittings were intended to go together. The washers are used to adjust the fit and most swords have them to fine-tune the spacing of the tsuba, habaki and hilt. Anyhow, there's nothing to suggest that the hilt guard and metalwork on the hilt aren't of a similar period to the blade - they aren't modern.

 

Have you tried to take the leather cover off the scabbard? That might have been fitted for WW2 but there may be a lacquered wood scabbard underneath.

[Corry]

11 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Torvald,

I don't think that it's oil quenched as it isn't a war-time blade. There is some activity in the metal which is evidence of it being a folded blade, though this isn't very prominent and that might point to it being a shinshinto blade - so late 1700's to the Meiji restoration (1863) maybe earlier than that based on the colour of the patina on the tang.

 

Most older blades are a "put together" in the sense that they don't come in their original fittings as these tended to get damaged and wear out over time and so got replaced as required. Looking at the butt end of the tang, this looks like it might have been messed with to make the sword fit the hilt rather than the hilt being made for the blade but that doesn't look like it was done recently. The usual tell for this is multiple holes in the tang and hilt. How does everything fit? If the scabbard is tight but not excessively so and there's no rattling with the tsuba then the chances are the blade and fittings were intended to go together. The washers are used to adjust the fit and most swords have them to fine-tune the spacing of the tsuba, habaki and hilt. Anyhow, there's nothing to suggest that the hilt guard and metalwork on the hilt aren't of a similar period to the blade - they aren't modern.

 

Have you tried to take the leather cover off the scabbard? That might have been fitted for WW2 but there may be a lacquered wood scabbard underneath.

Thanks for your response John! I thought the black/dark line on the hamon indicated oil quench? The Tsuka is tight the Tsuba and seppa are a little loose. I have tried (not too hard) to get the cover offf, but the Saya is in black rayskin. Hope this helps.

 

Regards,

Corry (Tor)

[Corry]

I have ordered a miroscope that plugs into my phone so I can look at my blades with better resolution.

[Shugyosha]

As regards the tsuba, it's possible that this isn't an original part of the fittings then. Some enterprising dealers will swap out an attractive tsuba to sell separately and replace it with something they have hanging around. I'd not mess with the leather scabbard cover then as removing it might damage what's underneath.

[Corry]

30 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

As regards the tsuba, it's possible that this isn't an original part of the fittings then. Some enterprising dealers will swap out an attractive tsuba to sell separately and replace it with something they have hanging around. I'd not mess with the leather scabbard cover then as removing it might damage what's underneath.

That wouldn't surprise me. I picked it up a while back fro an ebay dealer that seems notorious for this.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Corry,

Sorry I missed the part about a black line indicating an oil quenched blade. It certainly can, but in your blade I believe I can see nie along that line which don't form with an oil quenched blade and also I think I can see a bright line of nioi running up to it. Is the dark line limited to what is shown in the picture? I would expect it to have formed elsewhere along the hamon and on both sides of the blade if oil quenched, however, I'm not sure what that dark line is, but my feeling is that it isn't oil quenched.

 

The scabbard is actually lacquered rather than ray skin - the lacquer has been stippled? to form that rugged effect.

[Corry]

10 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Corry,

Sorry I missed the part about a black line indicating an oil quenched blade. It certainly can, but in your blade I believe I can see nie along that line which don't form with a water quenched blade and also I think I can see a bright line of nioi running up to it. Is the dark line limited to what is shown in the picture? I would expect it to have formed elsewhere along the hamon and on both sides of the blade if oil quenched, however, I'm not sure what that dark line is, but my feeling is that it isn't oil quenched.

 

The scabbard is actually lacquered rather than ray skin - the lacquer has been stippled? to form that rugged effect.

So, you think perhaps traditionally made, but messed with a bit (even if normal for an old blade)?

 

Regards,

Tor

[Corry]

14 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Corry,

Sorry I missed the part about a black line indicating an oil quenched blade. It certainly can, but in your blade I believe I can see nie along that line which don't form with a water quenched blade and also I think I can see a bright line of nioi running up to it. Is the dark line limited to what is shown in the picture? I would expect it to have formed elsewhere along the hamon and on both sides of the blade if oil quenched, however, I'm not sure what that dark line is, but my feeling is that it isn't oil quenched.

 

The scabbard is actually lacquered rather than ray skin - the lacquer has been stippled? to form that rugged effect.

I'll post better pics once I get my microscope.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Tor,

Definitely not an oil quenched blade, I see no reason to suspect that the bottom of the tang has been messed with, no evidence either that the tsuba has been replaced (maybe it has but no way to know): no reason to call this anything but a samurai sword that was traditionally made sometime between the 16th and 19th centuries. Resist all urges to fix it in any way; leave any restoration to those with proper training. See if you can find someone with years worth of knowledge to look at it in hand, which is the only way you're likely to learn much more about the sword.

Cheers,  Grey

[Stephen]

Too many quotes makes for read.

The first photo with blade. How long is the nagasa? O-tanto?...my eye doesn't see wakizashi.

 

[Stephen]

Admin,  anyway they can quote just pertinent sentence, not the whole post with photos?

[Corry]

12 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Admin,  anyway they can quote just pertinent sentence, not the whole post with photos?

This is my sword and pics. Not sure if you are referring to me tho. Too tired to measure. it's a short sword. Maybe tomorrow, I'll measure it.

 

Rgds,

Corry

[Stephen]

Just the quote s reply to you post Corry.

We just read what they wrote no need to quote them ....makes for a lot of unnecessary bandwidth use.

Ill be patient get some rest.

[Corry]

Also, my apologies, on other websites you quote someone when responding to them. Thanks for the heads up!

 

-Corry

[Bruce Pennington]

You can highlight just a word, or sentence that you want to address and a "Quote" tab appears.  Click on that and the selected section of words appear in your "reply" window without quoting the whole post.

 

I use the technique when I see that the guy I want to converse with isn't "Following" the thread.  As far as I know, they may never re-visit the discussion.  The quote sends them a notice.

[Stephen]

Any who more of the blade please.

[Corry]

Here aree some pics under magnification:

[Stephen]

May i ask, how long is the nagasa?

[Corry]

Stephen,

 

32.5cm or ~12.75"

 

Regards,

Corry