Alcohol instead of Uchiko?

[Martin]

Hi all,

 

I have a question concerning the maintenance of blades (again)

Is it okay to (always) use nearly pure alcohol (90%) to take off the old oil from blades?

I read in the sword care guide of the NBTHK that it could be used when the oil cannot be removed with ease by wiping with a clean tissue.

In addition to this I also read not to use Uchiko on a sword in good polish because it can harm the polish.

 

What are your experiences and best practices and does it harm the blade (metal) if it is regularly treated with alcohol (instead of Uchiko)?

 

I would be grateful for any practical advice.

 

cheers,

Martin

[Mark]

Martin,

 

I use Alcohol on blades in polish. Uchiko can scratch a blade at times, especailly a sword with horimono (you get scratches at the end or the carving) . I think you can get alcohol that has very little, or no, water.

 

Mark

[Henry Wilson]

I would definitely not use uchiko on a blade in polish as it sooner than later will dull and spoil the polish. I have learnt this from first hand experience.

 

Last year we bought a nice new tv and as part of the service they were generous enough to give us a micro fibre cloth to clean the screen of finger prints etc. I cut this in half and use it on my blades every 3 months or so, or when the seasons change and I replace the oil. So far there has been no bad effects and I would recommend it.

 

I use uchiko to re-vitalise a blade that will not take a polish. I have been treating an old wakizashi with the uchiko for about a year and half now and I am starting to see the hamon. Basically the stuff (uchiko) is abrasive so it is definitely going to scratch a lovely new polish.

[Guido]

I wrote an article about polishing and cleaning Nihontô for the JSS/US Newsletter a few months ago, which also can be found on Bob Benson's website: http://bushidojapaneseswords.com/articles.htm (No. 5).

[Rabro]

Uchiko or at least good uchiko is as fine as the uchigumori stones that make the final finish and therefore cannot damage the steel.

 

I make no claim to any extpertise in the world of polishing but I do practice it on my own blades and in my humble opinion, we get too scared of our blades which were, after all, made for battle. I have read rediculous statements from "apparently" inteligent people who claim that Japanese swords can be damaged by improper use of tissue paper !!! ???. I think that there is way too much BS about this subject for us mere mortals (ie those of us who do not own treasure blades).

 

Unless you have a juyo nagamitsu lying around in the closet, I say work with the uchiko since there is almost no possibility of doing any real damage and it gives you a rare opportunity to participate in one of the serious art forms that is not readily available from any other segment.

 

I mean to say.....who the hell would touch up a Rembrant!!

 

Bottom line......... I'll go with the popular line that if you think it might be something special, get an opinion and if not.......Uchiko the hell out of it and enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yeah right!!

Roger

[Martin]

Hi,

 

many thanks for your helpful comments so far.

 

A special thanks to Guido for providing the link to your very informative article. In this article you write about some alcohol with a purity of 99,5% (waterless ethanol). As far as I know german pharmacies only provide alcohol with a purity of 90%. Is this kind of ethanol also suitable for sword care or does it contain too much water?

 

greetings,

Martin

[Stephen]

on this ....DO NOT USE UCHIKO ....no matter how good ....ON A NEWLY POLISHED BLADE. Trust me it will ruin it and your hard earned money will go out the window.

[Guido]

In this article you write about some alcohol with a purity of 99,5% (waterless ethanol). As far as I know german pharmacies only provide alcohol with a purity of 90%. Is this kind of ethanol also suitable for sword care or does it contain too much water?

In my opinion it's suitable. However, the chemicals that are added to denatured alcohol - to make it undrinkable - might result in some color streaks (that go away after oiling).

[Bungo]

検書焼燭短看剣引杯長

 

this is dangerous stuff............ reading books till the candle burned low, holding a sword while drinking.

 

 

 

milt THE ronin

[Guido]

検書焼燭短看剣引杯長

this is dangerous stuff............ reading books till the candle burned low, holding a sword while drinking.

Uhm, it usually translates (loosely) as "reading books only burns candles, but looking at swords is like a always filled cup of Sake", meaning that it's much better to look at a real sword than reading books about swords. Kambun can be tricky to read ...

[BenoitD]

About a month ago, Kiyota Jirokunietsu San came to supper at our aikido/Iaido dojo with his student Pierre Nadeau San. He was visiting in Montreal and giving a demonstration on nihonto forging.

 

http://www.soulsmithing.com/PERSONS/KIY ... otaEN.html

 

I asked him that very same question during the meal.

 

Kiyota San told me that he only use ushiko powder of good quality to clean his new forged blades. His teacher, Kawari Kunihira San, did the same.

 

http://www.mugenkan.com

 

For the first 3 month, the blade has to be cleaned every week because it can rust easely. After that it is cleaned once a month for 3-6 months and then only every 6 months. It has to be cleaned every time you use it or show it to someone. It has to be cleaned every month for 3-6 months if you move it out of its usual resting place (you move to a new house where the humidity level is different).

 

Rice paper, white flanel or special clothes for eyeglasses can be use with shoji oil (of good quality) to clean the blade.

 

Kiyota San does not know exactely why (there is seldom WHY with Japanese people), he learned it his way.

 

Hope this will help.

 

BenoitD

[Jean]

In fact, leaving in Paris (France) I never oil and very seldom use uckiko on my blades. As years past, all my sword being in shirasaya, i have never encounterd any rusting problems even with freshly polished ones.

 

I suggest that the oil process should be done only in countries where humidity level is very high. In our houses often overheates, there is no sense using oil. In fact in this case it is drag, because the scabbards are stained and that you have to use alcohol to remove the stains.

 

I have got a lot of friends who have followed this method og giving up oiling there swords without any problems.

 

Just check the hygrometry of your house

[Martin]

Hi Jean,

 

I indeed also heard that people store even their very valuable swords without any oil :?

 

Maybe this is due to the climate here in germany where the humidity level is usually not that high?

 

I am a kind of anxious though but maybe give it a try.

 

cheers,

Martin

[Jean]

Hi Martin

 

I have followed your 2 links and Koichi answer. I fully agrre with him. In Europe generally speking, unless leaving close to the sea or near swamps 'Bayou, Everglades ....' Store your swords in shirasaya without any oil and avoid uchiko, use a cotton cloth (clean)

 

Cheers

 

Jean

[Martin]

Hi all,

 

As for waterless alcohol - I asked in some pharmacies around and they told me about a solution called ISOPROPANOL (or ISOPROPYL-ALCOHOL) 100% .

According to them it is comparable with 100% alcohol and is completely waterless. Does anybody - maybe Guido have any experience with this?

 

Thanks once again

Martin

[pcfarrar]

Isopropanol should be safe to use. It will take off the oil just the same as ethanol.

[nagamaki - Franco]

There are 3 grades of ispropyl alcohol sold; 91%, 95%, and 99%.

 

Additionally http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:ExI ... =clnk&cd=1

 

I've not used isopropyl alcohol to clean the oil off swords to this point. The one immediate reservation is some polishers use a lacquer to seal pin holes and the like following the polish to prevent further oxidation. The concern is that isopropyl alcohol will dissolve this lacquer.

 

F

[Grey Doffin]

For what it's worth (not much) here is my take on uchiko/alcohol. If I use uchiko on a sword in polish I use only high quality uchiko, which I purchased from Bob Benson, the polisher in Hawaii. At sword shows in the States I've heard it called 'polisher's uchiko'. I've never experienced scratching with this uchiko.

That said, I rarely use uchiko on a sword in polish. When I need to wipe my sword I use a micro fiber cloth. I've been told that the National Sword Museum in Tokyo (NBTHK) uses micro fiber in lieu of uchiko.

One thing about micro fiber cloth: new out of the package they have a stitched bound edge. If you're being very careful you'll cut of this stitching, which isn't as soft as the cloth and might trap small particles. The micro fiber can be washed if necessary.

Any alcohol combines readily with water; no matter how pure it will pick up moisture from the air. A friend with a great collection cleans his blades with benzene, if I'm not mistaken. Benzene is toxic; don't know as I'd like to use it.

As to whether a sword needs to be oiled: hard to say. I tend not to but I've been burned before when a small rust spot appeared. I'd try it only if the sword's last polish was at least 6 months ago, if it is in well made shira-saya (so the blade isn't touching the wood), and if the storage area isn't overly humid.

That's what I know. Grey

[kusunokimasahige]

thanks for the info!!

 

KM

[Stephen]

on when to oil a newley polished bade ...cant find it

 

something like once a day for a week once a week for a month once a month for a year ect...not sure of the time frame. somebody out there should have it.

[kusunokimasahige]

Perzonally i think that if you only use proper uchiko once and a while, and oil your blade once every week, everything should be okay...

 

of course depending on the tissue/material you wipe the old oil off with...

 

I know from my Roman military gear, which is plate-iron, it is best to oil it once a week to prevent rusting.

 

KM

[Gaijin]

on when to oil a newley polished bade ...cant find it

 

something like once a day for a week once a week for a month once a month for a year ect...not sure of the time frame. somebody out there should have it.

 

here: http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/care/handling.htm

 

4. Since a blade is particularly vulnerable to rusting soon after polishing, cleaning and oiling should be done preferably every ten days for about six months.

 

5. Later when the polished blade surface condition is more stable, clean it regularly, at least every six months.

[Katsujinken-Ya]

Hello Martin,

 

that uchiko is not so good to use to clean fine blades on a regular basis seems to be common sense, nowerdays. I can remember an article from the 1950ies or 60ies in which a then Japanese sword authority advises collectors to clean and treat blades with uchiko very intensively. Either he based this on the fact that many blades he might have come across in the US were covered with heavy machine oil by ignorants, or he wanted the people to ruin their captured swords on purpose .

 

The first time, I watched someone using alcohol on Japanese blades was while visiting a Japanese dealer in Tokyo. He was wiping off a blade with some liquid and I asked him what secret solution that was. Alcohol, it came out!

 

It works really well, especially if you aditionally, carefully wipe the blade off with a micrifiber cloth (german: Mikrofasertuch). Do not employ too much pressure!

 

90% ethanol or even conventional methylated alcohol (german: Brennspiritus) is technically fine for this application. Make sure that all liquid that could contain a rest of water is entirely evaporised prior to resheathing the blade into the saya. Especially watch the part covered by the habaki! The chemically purest alcohol available is "spiritus absolutus". Your pharmacist will like you when you ask for this.

 

Uchiko I use myself only on my iaitos after training. It works well to remove the sticky sweat from the mune. If you use a less precious Japanese jitsuyo-to for training with a less elaborate polish, uchiko will be fine for the same purpose. Another reason to use uchiko is when the blade is obscured by human debris such as fat, bone, blood, tissue..., after a sucessful combative encounter

:lol: . Having sayed that, this will be unlikely the case, will it?

 

Cheers, Dieter

[Darcy]

This was something originally shown to me by Cary Condell. The Microdear lens cloth is a really great thing, and for me replaced uchiko 99% of the time.

 

http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=i ... 6%20Cloths

 

If you use one you won't need any solvents in the vast majority of situations. Some solvents can alter the polish.

 

The uchiko powder that I use, when I have to use it, is that made by Fujishiro, which in my experience has been head and shoulders over the standard commercial stuff. This was another Condell thing. I don't see eye to eye with him on everything, but in this case, credit where credit is due, these are two very good sword care methodology improvements in my opinion over the standard sword care kit.

 

Some collectors believe that uchiko improves polish, and this is based on their opinion that a more muted polish is better than what the ideal polish produced by a polisher is. So this is an important factor to realize if going down that path... uchiko will not "improve" the polish in terms of what the polisher wants to see... he's already producing what he thinks is ideal. If your tastes lead to a more classical look, the uchiko will have the effect of toning down the hadori among other things, then this will be an improvement that is subjective to this kind of person. There is no right or wrong here, people I respect highly continue to hold this opinion, and it's entirely based on the judgment of "what is an ideal state of polish."

 

For me, I try to preserve what the polisher did, so uchiko is not often used... furthermore if I don't use it, none can get into the shirasaya and scratch up the blade.

[w.y.chan]

Agree with Darcy about the Fujishiro cleaning powder. In fact I am quite convince they are not real uchiko but some kind of fine talc like powder soft enough not to scratch a newly polished blade. Dont know how long its been around because most people have never seen it but I have been using them for 10 years and tried convince others to choose it. I believe these are now the choice "uchiko" amongst Japanese collectors for their juto. I feel oiling and uchiko a newly polished blade is probably an attempt to seal the surface of the steel from moisture like you might do with a freshly sanded wood you wax the surface and protect it.

[kusunokimasahige]

so, what about the advice some people give to use clear sowing machine oil, or high grade weapons oil, like gun oil?

 

KM

[Brian]

KM,

 

Sewing machine oil is usually a light machine oil that is fairly pure, and is supposed to be ok for swords.

There are way too many gun oils out there..some with additives and some without. I think each gun oil would have to be judged on its own merits, and some could possibly harm a blade.

 

Brian

[Darcy]

A friend of mine was using gun oil and sent some blades to me. I found that the gun oil (probably no two oils are the same, so take my experience with a grain of salt) became very tacky. It also had an unpleasant smell.

 

I hated it.

[Katsujinken-Ya]

so, what about the advice some people give to use clear sowing machine oil, or high grade weapons oil, like gun oil?

 

KM

 

Again there is the discussion around wether, or wehter not choji oill is the right thing, at all.

 

When living in non humid climates simply wiping off the blade softly with a microfibre cloth after studying your blade will be fine. Only occasionally a further treatment with i.e alcohol might be necessary.

 

It can be a good thing after kantei with other people. Spit, fingerprints and other nasty things. Also check the saya against previous inproper teratment! There might be dirt like rests of uchiko, oils, pieces of wood and what have you inside the saya. In such case, have a new saya made!

 

Oils can be acidic. This can cause the kind of redox-reaction we do not want on our blades. German made Ballistol gun oil (has been around since WWI) is alcaline and some people, I know, use it for nihonto in general. I have been using it for iaitos and my shinsaku practice katana with no visible effect, so far. However, in case of collective blades I prefer to have nothing on, if possible. Only for transport.

 

Dieter

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Ohmura Tomoyuki san, the gunto expert, always tells me off for using uchiko and choji oil!

He never uses either on his extensive collection of swords, preferring the oil used for old watch mechanisms (which can be purchased from "Tokyu Hands" crafts shops for those living in Japan).

 

Just my ha’porth worth!

Simon