osfune ju and ju osfune ?

[rodrig4]

Hello.
here are two signatures:
備 州長 船 住 祐 定
bishū osafune ju sukesada
備 前 國 住 長 船 祐 定
bizen kuni ju osafune sukesada
is there a characteristic trait between osafune ju and ju osafune.
awaiting a response I wish you a good day.

                  RG.

[ChrisW]

Not sure about the syntax. But Bishu is an older form of Bizen. So it may have purely to do with relative age.

[Mark]

not sure about BiShu being older form, my understanding is BiShu is the shortened form or less formal form of Bizen (and other provinces).  I thought it was like saying "Mich" instead of Michigan, or OH instead of Ohio.   Osafune is a town but also became, or was, a School or group.  so bishu or Bizen Kuni Osafune Ju  is a place description -- i am from Osafune Bizen,    Bizen Kuni Ju Osafune  more of i am from Bizen Prov and the Osafune group or school

 

just my understanding, happy to be corrected and learn

[Guido]

備州 Bishū consists of 備前国 Bizen no kuni, 備中国 Bitchu no kuni, and 備後国 Bingo no kuni - literally front-Bi, middle-Bi, and back-Bi. The above examples all mean the town of Osafune 長船, the different arrangements of where it is put just follow the traditional pattern.

[ChrisW]

40 minutes ago, Mark said:

not sure about BiShu being older form, my understanding is BiShu is the shortened form or less formal form of Bizen (and other provinces).  I thought it was like saying "Mich" instead of Michigan, or OH instead of Ohio.   Osafune is a town but also became, or was, a School or group.  so bishu or Bizen Kuni Osafune Ju  is a place description -- i am from Osafune Bizen,    Bizen Kuni Ju Osafune  more of i am from Bizen Prov and the Osafune group or school

 

just my understanding, happy to be corrected and learn

I was just going by what I had been told! If yours is the case, then all the better as it provides far more information than what I was told.

[Shugyosha]

There may or may not be some significance to the choice of Bizen or Bishu and the syntax:

 

[george trotter]

Just to add...Bizen (front), Bitchu (middle), Bingo (back) are laid out running down the coast  away from Osaka and similarly Echizen, Etchu, Echigo run north up the (north) coast away from Edo (Tokyo).

Just a logical layout of provinces. There are other examples, sometimes without a middle province.

[Curran]

Guido answered it. [and George too while I was typing]

Literally front, middle, back or early, middle, late. Just pull up an old map.

[Shugyosha]

This article on Nihonto.com discusses signatures on kazu uchi mono under the sue Bizen section. 
 

https://www.nihonto.com/a-brief-study-of-bizen-blades-of-the-muromachi-era/

[Nobody]

I think that the point of the question is the place of “ju” rather than Bishu or Bizen.

 

As “Bizen (no) kuni Osafune (備前國長舩)” is a place name, it may be natural to write Bizen (no) kuni Osafune ju (備前國長舩住) before a smith name. Oei Bizen or before Oei Bizen blades usually have such a mei. And after shinto Bizen blades also have the mei style.

However, Sue-Bizen blades have Bizen (no) kuni ju Osafune (備前國住長舩) style before a smith name.

 

I do not know its exact reason. As Chris W said in this thread, the context might emphasize “I am from Bize Prov and the Osafune group or school”.

[Jean]

Nothing new under the sun. 

READ CAREFULLY THE FOLLOWING TOPIC AND WHAT DARCY’S WROTE ON THE SUBJECT.

READ NIHONTO KOZA ON SUE BIZEN AND GIMEI