Kai Gunto saya types compared

[Lareon]

Got mine out to have a look again and took some decent photos of the mounts and saya

 

[Lareon]

I really love the hamon on this too. Double peaks with another small section of tobiyaki above

[Butch]

Here are some pics of mine 

[Butch]

Pic2

[Bruce Pennington]

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a kaigunto with both traditional saya (you can see the black lacquer and semegane under the leather) covered in leather, and the not-so-common chuso latch.

[AlexiG]

This is a bit of an old thread but wanted to post here as the examples of kaigunto koshirae are fantastic. I recently bought a kaigunto sword and the ishizuke is different from what I typically see. Any significance to the type of ishizuke?

 

The sword has sharkskin covered saya and the button release latch. The blade is mumei and seems old. I am planning to send it for shinsa in December, unless someone here thinks it is a complete waste of money.

[AlexiG]

the sword. It is masame mixed with itame but the masame is hard to photograph and is clearer at the monouchi (P.S. For the closeups, the sword is not laying on the surface although it may appear to be  I it is on a sword pillow)

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Alexi, nice sword. If you search "extended drag" and "wakase fittings" you will find some further information on the maker of your fittings.

[AlexiG]

22 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hi Alexi, nice sword. If you search "extended drag" and "wakase fittings" you will find some further information on the maker of your fittings.

Awesome! Thanks John, found the references.

[Bruce Pennington]

And thanks, Alexi, for bringing this one back up.  I really enjoyed re-reading it!

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Alexi , as no one has stuck their neck out on the blade I will . I think it is shinshinto at best and probably from the Showa era . These swords with the hada that looks like it is made from two steels mixed together I have heard described as half swords . My understanding of this is that they are only partly made using traditional methods . This conclusion would be strengthened if the piece had ububa and a Showa era habaki . It follows that I think that you should save your money on the Shinsa . There I have stuck my neck out , what do others think?

Ian Brooks

[AlexiG]

Hi Ian,

 

definitely an interesting hypothesis. The nakago condition looks, to my inexperienced eyes, a lot older than a showa blade and the shape has a koto-feel to it, but you do have a point about the temper line appearance and mixed steels. 

 

The blade looks like it has been shortened. Two reasons to say that. The temper line disappears into the rust of the nakago rather than curving down, and the habaki seems to have had a different location further down on the blade. See change of color/rubbing across the nakago right above the first mekugi-ana in the picture below.

 

Thanks! I am not in a hurry to throw money out of the window  

Alexi

[Bazza]

Agree with Ian and John. The tang has a smooth appearance and combined with a blackish finish suggests artificial patination.  Check for ububa (flat edge for a short distance from the hamachi) as Ian suggests.  Also, your observation that the habaki seems to be a refit suggests a shorter tang lengthened by machiokuri to fit a WW2 koshirae.  Now here's a tear (sob).  I have a nida Hizen Tadahiro katana that had machiokuri performed to fit the blade to a shinguntou koshirae (sob again).  Ubu, but no longer pristine...

 

BaZZa.

[AlexiG]

22 minutes ago, Bazza said:

Agree with Ian and John. The tang has a smooth appearance and combined with a blackish finish suggests artificial patination.  Check for ububa (flat edge for a short distance from the hamachi) as Ian suggests.  Also, your observation that the habaki seems to be a refit suggests a shorter tang lengthened by machiokuri to fit a WW2 koshirae.  Now here's a tear (sob).  I have a nida Hizen Tadahiro katana that had machiokuri performed to fit the blade to a shinguntou koshirae (sob again).  Ubu, but no longer pristine...

 

BaZZa.

Hi Barry, you have my attention  Below are few more photos. I am afraid I am a bit sidetracking the thread but pleas indulge

I have no clue about the time period of manufacture for the habaki. But it slightly larger (taller than the blade at the mune). Hopefully that is visible on one of the photographs.

 

I see a clear shift of the geometry of the nakago. It goes from old, rounded and deformed by rust to a flat and shiny edge. this is visible on both top and bottom sides.  Does that strengthen your hypothesis?

 

Best,

Alexi

[PNSSHOGUN]

Two different lacquer types, and sharkskin. The early gloss lacquer Kai Gunto came with a leather cover with split seam, which is why the condition has remained quite good. The textured lacquer saya sword came with a unique theater made cover from saltwater crocodile skin on Balikpapan.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

textured lacquer saya sword

John,

Could we get a shot or two of the textured one?  These are too dark to see the details.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 8/17/2023 at 10:33 PM, AlexiG said:

This is a bit of an old thread but wanted to post here as the examples of kaigunto koshirae are fantastic. I recently bought a kaigunto sword and the ishizuke is different from what I typically see. Any significance to the type of ishizuke?

 

The sword has sharkskin covered saya and the button release latch. The blade is mumei and seems old. I am planning to send it for shinsa in December, unless someone here thinks it is a complete waste of money.

Another like Alexi posted.  Found on this Estate Auction.  Has a large seki stamped Kanemune blade, no date.  Lots of seppa.  I wonder if Wakasei made all their kai fittings with chuso?

 

 

[DTM72]

Anyone notice the rare extended drag on the saya?

 

BTW, I'm still on the hunt for a nice kai-gunto with fine sharkskin saya, not bigger rayskin. Thanks!

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, DTM72 said:

notice the rare extended drag on the saya?

Yes, that is why I mentioned Wakasei.  That shop made these, and I was wondering if all their kiagunto included the chuso.  I'll check other threads to see if I can find more.