Kai Gunto saya types compared

[Kolekt-To]

On a whim this evening I decided to lay out three of my Type 97's to compare their sayas - photos attached. In the first photo, from Left to Right: Toyokawa arsenal with black lacquer saya, Toyokawa arsenal with lacquered shagreen (shark skin) saya, Tenshozan Forge with lacquered ray skin saya. In the second photo, close-ups of the sayas' surfaces from Top to Bottom: Tenshozan Forge with ray skin saya, Toyokawa Arsenal with shagreen saya, Toyokawa Arsenal with black lacquered saya. I find the various Kai Gunto saya types interesting.

[Bruce Pennington]

I like the look of the kaigunto, too.  Here's my 3.  Top to bottom - mumei Koto blade in leather-covered shagreen saya, mumei Takayama-to in combat saya, Seki stamped Yoshishige in standard saya

 

The shagreen:

 

[Kolekt-To]

Beautiful Bruce! Fine examples with nice koshirae and blades. And the leather saya covers look to be in good shape and are very cool!

[EdWolf]

Beautiful kai-gunto swords. 

I have two, both in almost perfect condition.

 

[Kolekt-To]

Fantastic Ed! These Kai Gunto photos are making me salivate. Lol!

[IJASWORDS]

This is a rough speckled paint example, similar to the paint found on the premium Army RS Shin Gunto. Came with the original securing lanyard as well.  

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I came across this one a few years ago . It is a same saya that has been painted or lacquered black . The same has not been filled and then rubbed back . I have never seen this before and to my eyes it looked like it was original . . 

Ian Brooks

[PNSSHOGUN]

Very unique, the other fittings/finish are of the better quality standard. Looks like it would make short work of the officers nice gloves!

[Kolekt-To]

I concur John. Ian has an interesting example, indeed. I like everything about its unique look, including the flat-wrapped tsuka and the nice fittings - all the details! And, hopefully there's a nice blade inside that saya.

[Kaigunto230]

Love Kai Guntos! Here’s my late war one with a plain wood saya covered by a leather combat cover.

[Kolekt-To]

Very cool example Michael! Love the leather cover and the blackened fittings. 

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, MichaelSeeley said:

Here’s my late war one with a plain wood saya covered by a leather combat cover.

 

Michael,

Have you posted the nakago on this yet?  Does it have a circled anchor stamp? Any mei or stamped numbers?

[Kaigunto230]

@Bruce Pennington I did! You were actually kind enough to help me with connecting the dots on the signature and identifying it as late war:

 

[IJASWORDS]

Normally used on old blades with a wood Saya, this full leather double hanger is typical. 

[IJASWORDS]

I should have added that the sword is secured by a snap tab, and uses the fairly rare pierced tsuba/seppa set. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Can't find a thread dedicated to talking specifically about kaigunto fittings, so if @Kolekt-To doesn't mind, I'll start using this one a general reference thread for the topic.

 

I know Nick Komiya made a post showing the leather saya covers for kaigunto were to be black or blackened, but I don't have that reference.  If any Truly Gifted searchers, @Kiipu comes to mind, could dig that out and post here, I'd appreciate it.  Otherwise, I can spend the next several years digging it out, and I'll update here!

 

I mention this because I just came across this photo showing some kaigunto, a couple of them leather covered.  One is dark, as expected, the other looks to be natural leather color.  I appreciate this photo because I have a Navy takayama-to with a brown leather cover.  It's always bothered me, as I've wondered if it were original or post-war made.  This photo shows that the natural colored covers were in use by navy officers. 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

An unusual theater made example using saltwater crocodile skin. The Saya underneath is a normal black lacquer type.

[Kolekt-To]

Question about the leather combat covers for Kai Gunto: Is the single Haiken/Ashi version more common or less common than the double Haiken/Ashi type? Again, I'm just referring to leather combat covers for the Type 97.

[Bencld]

With an older blade. Full leather covered with leather snap lock and pierced tsuba.

 

[Bencld]

Neill,

       Question about the “leather covered saya normally for older blades”? Can you elaborate on this please ? 

Also, how rare/uncommon are the pierced tsuba/seppa set on these rigs ?

 

chris.

[Bruce Pennington]

I have not studied the kaigunto in depth, but in my casual exposure to the type, the single haikan (ashi) starts appearing toward the end of the war, so "older" simply means earlier in the war.  The uniform regs were changed in the last year of the war to allow for single haikan and looser specifications to detail.  Even non-guilded fittings were specified.

 

I have seen pierced tsuba for a leather retention strap, but it is uncommon in my memory.

[Lareon]

Here are a few of my early naval mounts

[Kolekt-To]

For those sayas with leather combat covers for the Type 97, is the actual saya usually a plain wood, or is black lacquer finish more common? And, except for the double Ashi earlier version, how would a single Ashi leather-covered Navy saya differ from that of leather-covered Army saya? Would a black lacquer finish determine the difference? Would there be any discernible difference?

[Lareon]

This is a much older blade in mounts that looks a little put together that I saw a while ago.

it has a pierced tsuba and a wooden saya but no leather cover over it, no idea what's going on with it but it has a few interesting bits and pieces 

 

[Kolekt-To]

Thanks for your post Tony!

Do we know if plain wood sayas were the most common to be fitted with combat covers, or was the black lacquer finish type most common?

[Lareon]

I also would like to know if that plain wood saya on there should have a leather cover? i've never seen the plain wood beneath the leather cover just the black lacquer ones

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Lareon said:

Here are a few of my early naval mounts

 

Tony,

Yours looks a lot like one of mine.  Same worn look to the skin saya cover, same loss of gold-gilding.  And my has a Muromachi era blade.  Interesting!

[Bruce Pennington]

19 hours ago, Kolekt-To said:

Thanks for your post Tony!

Do we know if plain wood sayas were the most common to be fitted with combat covers, or was the black lacquer finish type most common?

Geoff,

I don't know the real answer to that.  Maybe someone who studies koshirae, like @PNSSHOGUN, or someone who collects kaigunto has more of a feel for that.   I know that late-war gunto, both army and navy, were being mounted in the black-lacquered wood with leather cover.  Earlier mounts were more of a mixture of every combination.

[Kolekt-To]

Thanks Bruce!

I'm now thinking that a black lacquer finish for Type 97 sayas would be more common under a leather combat cover vs plain wood.

[robinalexander]

On 1/30/2022 at 11:49 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

I know Nick Komiya made a post showing the leather saya covers for kaigunto were to be black or blackened, but I don't have that reference.  If any Truly Gifted searchers, @Kiipu comes to mind, could dig that out and post here, I'd appreciate it.  Otherwise, I can spend the next several years digging it out, and I'll update here!

 

Bruce, @Bruce Pennington    maybe this is not the full answer to your question but by chance, the message below just popped up on another current thread.

 

Different-species Gunto & Civilian army employee swords (ohmura-study.net)  ----- Army civilian employee Gunto by Bruno