Restoring, or repairing a naginata

[Guest Aristeas]

Hi all,

I recently bought an old naginata for training and kata (not tameshigiri) and I'd like some ideas and advice before I do anything major to it.

 

Two things are of immediate concern. The first is the lacquer/finish at the top of the shaft.

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The mother-of-pearl inlay is quite fragile (although the shaft itself seems quite robust) and sheds timy pieces if mishandled (as it is the metal fittings are loose and slide easily up and down the shaft, removing more inlay). I'd like to protect it with a clear lacquer, but don't want to do anything that will ruin either the looks or the value. I want to restore and protect it, rather than just slap on a clear coat of something ungody.

 

Any knowledge or ideas on how this should be done, or what to use?

 

The second issue is the mekugi and mekugi-ana.

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The mekugi-ana closest to the top is the one that lines up wuith the tang(right of picture). Problem is that anything that is small enough to go through the hole on either side (both are the same size hole) is not wide enough to hold the tang securely in place. The blade is firmly seated, but one good swing and the blade pops out by 1/8th of an inch or so (the width of the mekugi-ana in the tang). Which isn't ideal. to fit a large mekugi would mean drilling out the hole on one side of the shaft (at least), something I'm not keen to do without serious thought first.

 

Would a binding around the shaft similar to a Tsuka-ate be sufficent to reinforce that part of the shaft?

 

Or would it be better to try and fill the hole in the tang with something to prevent it moving?

 

Your experience and advice would be most welcome.

 

Thanks, Lee

 

PS - More pix of the naginata are here:

 

http://usera.imagecave.com/aristeas/nagainata/

[John A Stuart]

May I suggest that you remount the naginata in a different e-bu (pole) for practice and use the original for display only. John

[IanB]

Lee, The Royal Armouries has about a dozen yari given to Queen Victoria with raden covered shafts and they too are shedding pieces of MOP. The conservation staff spent weeks sticking them back to give us a few examples for display. The rest are stored horizontally in lengths of plastic guttering so that any more pieces that drop out are at least kept with the shaft they have come from. I think the idea of a new shaft is the ideal solution. As for the mounts, some of my yari are in the same state and seem to have had paper or some fibrous material jammed under the mounts to keep them in position.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Lee, my suggestion is to do nothing both to the blade and to the saya.

 

The new shaft is a good suggestion but to make a reliable-enough shaft for safe training is a thing

I strongly doubt you're able to do.

I've made a new (oval) shaft for my daughter's Naginata together with a professional and I've realized I'll hardly ever be

able to do it again on my own.

 

A replica might be better for solo practice.

Being of no real value you can (should?) glue the blade inside the shaft and even dull the edge if you are not allowed (yet)

to train with sharpened tools by the ones that (should) supervisioning your training.

 

Have fun and be safe.

[rkg]

Lee,

 

I wouldn't recommend using the original koshirae for anything but display. Old koshirae tend to self destruct

on their own after a couple of hundred years, and I can't imagine you wanting to risk injuring yourself or somebody else

if that were to happen while training...

 

If you want to use the blade for this, you can have a modern koshirae made by somebody who knows what they are doing

(and I think Fred Lohman even still makes replica fittings/ishizuki/etc.,), though it might actually be cheaper to just buy a

modern replica sold for kata use.

 

On the MOP falling off, this seems to be a common affliction - I have a naginata pole that I'm not sure what to do with

myself - I'm afraid to even ship it off to somebody to get the MOP conserved because its so fragile - on the other hand,

it would be great to be able to display it more prominently - the fittings are amazing...

 

http://home.teleport.com/~rkg/photos/kunisuke_kosh.jpg

 

Good Luck,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Guest Aristeas]

Thanks Gentlemen,

 

Your input is much appreciated. As to replacing the pole and remounting the blade - well I have four other naginata, wooden, wood and bamboo and two sharp edged replica (of average quality). This wouldn't be my every day practice polearm, but something for use once a week or so. After training with naginata for around fifteen years it was my intention to use a genuine Japanese naginata for some mild kata and shoulder-stretching work, without the abandon that a wooden blade allows.

 

As to blunting the blade - I'm horrified at the thought! I've done iai on and off since the 1980s and always used a live blade from day one. I'm of the school that believes real conseuences encourages better technique from the beginning - and I've never cut myself deeper than a layer or two of skin, and then only when taking swords apart and photgraphing them. Glueing the blade in place, eek!

 

I contacted a very nice guy named Robert Soanes in the UK http://www.katchushi.com/ who''s a highly skilled restorer. His advice was to wrap the raden work with a fine leather binding, which seems so far to be the only solution, although I'm still wary in case the inlay sticks to the leather.

 

I have a friend here in Canberra who's a restorer with the Australian War Memorial Museum. She's currently conserving some showato. I plan to ask her advice and see what's the best outcome. I'll let you know how I go. Thanks again for your help.

 

Oh, and Richard, that's a magnificent looking piece. The flower in a wreath device is really elegant. Is it a family mon?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I've done iai on and off since the 1980s and always used a live blade from day one. I'm of the school that believes real conseuences encourages better technique from the beginning

 

Which School ? There are no schools that "Believes Real consequences encourages

better technique from the beginning" in the meaning of allowing use of sharpened blades in

early stages, and after 15 years of training you should know it's dangerous to let believe it

to begninners lurking this site.

 

Might be there are irresponsible Sensei, instead.

 

As to blunting the blade - I'm horrified at the thought! ...omissis...Glueing the blade in place, eek!

 

Blunting and glueing the *replica* of course. Maybe my english is not top notch or that

you've not experiece of dumb beginners (yet...).

[Brian]

Lee,

I read this post with interest, and to honest, I don't think there is a Nihonto collector or practisioner in the world that would advocate using the original pole in this case.

There is absolutely nothing that you could do that would 100% guarantee no loss of MOP inlay. In fact, I can guarantee that the condition is going to deteriorate. No matter what you cover it with, it is going to lose pieces, and will eventually end up on the scrap heap years from now.

Asking for a way to use this on a Nihonto forum is just asking for the inevitable replies.

I can also find not a single good reason not to have a new pole made, and use that for your kata. It has all of the advantages, and none of the disadvantages. It can be made in the same style/weight, with the benefit of matching up the mekugi ana and being safer.

Personally...I don't see any advantage to using an original blade either, but that is my personal feeling. It is only going to take one small mistake out of 1000's to chip or damage the blade.

I am in agreement with Carlo, and can't see any loss of any respect of whatever in using a modern blade.

Anyways, all we can do is advise. I hope you will think it through a bit before taking the risk.

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

I stand in complete agreement with the opinions expressed. I must also add that you came here for advice, which has been provided, yet you seem somewhat obsessed with using this koshirae against all reasonable advice. Don't let your enthusiasm over-ride common-sense; the structural integrity of this old Ebu potentially puts others at risk, and in spite of the contrary advice you are receiving here knowingly marching ahead to use it is both irresponsible and selfish.

 

That said, I am of the opinion that the blade is not original to the Ebu by reason of the observations you have made as well as the second ana that was installed. When constructed, the blade and Ebu are "married" to provide the structural integrity necessary to sustain the stresses of use. They are not interchangable and refitting *already* has compromised the fit and integrity of the rig regardless of any age or conditional considerations.

 

Nothing you convey to me here will convince me that using this naginata in training, whether alone or among fellow students is either safe or responsible.

 

Just my not so humble opinions on the matter.

[Guest Aristeas]

Gentlemen,

 

"I don't think there is a Nihonto collector or practisioner in the world that would advocate using the original pole in this case."

- Yes that's what I'm finding, and it's made me rethink my approach.

 

"asking for a way to use this on a Nihonto forum is just asking for the inevitable replies."

 

- not inevitable if you haven't been on this board before and don't know the people.

- To get your responses was why I asked in the first place.

 

"You came here for advice, which has been provided, yet you seem somewhat obsessed with using this koshirae against all reasonable advice."

 

- Where did you get that idea? All I've said is that I'm doing more research, with an expert in the field of conservation and restoration, BEFORE I go ahead with ANYTHING.

 

"in spite of the contrary advice you are receiving here knowingly marching ahead to use it is both irresponsible and selfish"

 

- marching ahead with research, before I act.

- Irresonsible and selfish? You don't know the first thing about me, and yet your first post to me, as a modertor of this board, is arrogant, rude and presumptious. What a wonderful welcome. I was actually hoping for some open-minded dialogue which is why I joined the forum in the first place. Being a newbie to the board doesn't mean i'm a newbie to martial arts or collecting swords. I've been involved in martial arts for forty-three years, since I was eight. my family's involvement goes back years before that.

 

"I am of the opinion that the blade is not original to the Ebu"

 

- I am already thoroughly aware of this. I am sure that blade and koshirae have had many other incarnations. Whch is why I'm doing reseaarch, asking questions, talking to qualified conservation and restoration experts, joining forums etc.

 

"Nothing you convey to me here will convince me... Just my not so humble opinions .."

 

- Apparently so. But I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. I'm not arguing a point. I'm seeking the benefit of other peoples' wisdom. What a pity that your wisdom doesn't come with the humility that so often graces the enlightened soul.

 

Just for the record:

 

I have decided not to use the naginata for practice, or to use the blade in a new pole. I had decided on that before I logged on here this morning. Peter Soanes comment that the raden work was a particularly fine example made up my mind for me. That and my own research on preserving raden work. I'm going to talk to a conservator and do my best to preserve this weapon in the best condition possible. I have found a solution to the mekugi-ana problem that works well and doesn't involve any damage to the staff. This will mean it's safe to pick up and handle without the possibility of losing a toe if the blade falls out.

 

Thankyou for your time, if not your attitude.

[Ted Tenold]

Lee,

 

As a moderator on the forum, I am obliged to be blunt sometimes, and as a person who is very often in touch with martial artists using live weapons, I have a very low threashold of tolerance for improper or unsafe applications, thus my opinions regarding folks swinging unsafe Nihonto around that can potentially cause harm is anything *but* moderate. Admittedly, my message does have a harsh tone, and in truth, meant to be stern, but not demeaning. Perhaps its the experience *I* have that lends to this hypersensitivity. Though I will step back and say that I am sorry this first posting experience was not exactly warm and fuzzy for you, I stand by the intent of my message and hope that you understand the sincerety of my concerns, shared by those who also contributed.

 

Until this previous post of yours above, you gave me no impression that you were entertaining alternatives other than taking action to secure the blade in the shaft for training and sequester the losses to the MOP during use. So if there are any misunderstandings, I believe they are mutually shared between us.

 

I'm glad and relieved that you are choosing to preserve the naginata rather than use it in training. May it bring you many years of enjoyment.

 

Also, per forum rules, please sign your posts with your name. You can add it as a signature to all posts in your profile.

[Bugyotsuji]

Can't quite follow the problem with the Mekugi-ana. I've looked at the photos in your link to the Naginata.

Does the ana have lead(?) soldered around it on one side only??? Possibly someone tried to reduce the size

of the hole with readily available lead which, predictably, has been too malleable.

 

If the blade does not drop properly into the haft, there may be rust at the bottom of the receiving hole inside

the haft.

 

There is also the possibility that your pole and your blade were never an item, which would explain why the

size of the hole(s) do not match the Mekugi-ana. If you wish to make them fit, you or someone who knows

his oats will almost certainly have to make a larger hole on one side and a suitable Mekugi for an aesthetic

and practical solution.

[Guest Aristeas]

Thanks Ted,

 

"Until this previous post of yours above, you gave me no impression that you were entertaining alternatives other than taking action to secure the blade in the shaft for training and sequester the losses to the MOP during use. So if there are any misunderstandings, I believe they are mutually shared between us."

 

If you read my second posting you'll see that I used the phrase:

 

"it was my intention to use a genuine Japanese naginata" WAS, past tense, not present tense.

 

That should indicate a change of position on my part. Subtle, perhaps, but no more subtle than those tiny movements that indicate a swordsman is about to strike. I accept your apology and the good grace that it shows. Thankyou.

 

And I am entirely clear that the world of sword appreciation is full of people who feel the need to swing live blades with no more intelligence than a room-temperature IQ would allow. And I know how they can drive a man to distraction.

 

My own understandings of live blades and their use comes from training in tanto-dori, knife defence as a young karate-ka. My father was the instructor, and I was always the one he would call on to demonstrate techniques. This was for the simple reason that he could rely on me to put everything I had into the knife thrust, dead-straight, never deviating from the line of attack, and coming through like an express train. That was the only safe way to do it. Any hesitation or half-hearted attack on my part, or sloppy movement with the knife hand would mean his move would be ill-timed, and possibly mean serious and bloody consequences. It took some nerve to thrust a dagger at my fathers stomach, trusting that he wouldn't be there when I arrrived. Anfd it taught me to be 100% awake, alert and serious about my karate, and later, my iaido.

 

We always demonstrated with a live blade, sharp enough to cause real damage.

 

And the students always used wooden tanto.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Maybe all started by this quote :

 

I've done iai on and off since the 1980s and always used a live blade from day one. I'm of the school that believes real conseuences encourages better technique from the beginning

 

Is not something you expect to be posted by a long time experienced martial artist well into

his adult age, for the already explained reasons.

 

I know that when something like this is read by Moderators a big enough bell

rings in their ears. Thanks for your clarifications about your experience with live blades in Karate and who was your Sensei. This makes things clear now.

 

Welcome.

[Guest Aristeas]

My apologies Carlo, I assumed I was speaking among peers.

[Guido]

My father and I used to hit each other over the head with iron rods when I was a youngster. Lots of fun. We called it "Moron-dô".

[Brian]

Don't make me moderate the moderators..especially when even I am scared of your evil twin :lol:

Lee, please don't take any of this personally. You have to understand that this is a forum where the primary concern above all else is conservation of Japanese swords. Everything else is secondary. In a forum where the majority are martial arts practicioners, opinions ay differ. However even the martial artists here know that our focus is on the study and preservation, and they understand that we are rabidly persistant about that.

After 4 repies about not using the pole, you posted a new idea of leather that you were investigating..indicating that you still had the idea to use it. Hence the concerned replies.

I think it is admirable that you have decided not to use it.

Understand too that we cannot advocate using sharp objects for sport here. It is a public forum, and read by many beginners, and any encouragement would be counter productive.

I think your decision not to use it is a great one and we would be happy to asisst with advice on the naginata itself or any other aspect of the blade itself.

I'll consider the issue itself closed now.

 

Regards,

Brian