Tassel confirmations needed

[Kolekt-To]

Hey guys, attached is a photo of two of my tassels pictured side by side for comparison. They're both a little beat up, but hanging in there (pun intended!). I believe the one on the left is a late war Army type (solid medium-brown color). I can't determine if the one on the right is Army or Navy. My first impression was that it is a faded Navy tassel because it's darker than the army tassel in the picture and darker than a couple of other medium-brown tassels I own. However, in comparison to my Navy tassels that are the typical dark chocolate-brown color, I'm now unsure of it being a Navy tassel. Could it be an Army tassel that was produced in a slightly darker, or more tan, color? Or, could it be a Navy tassel that has faded and lightened over time? What do you think about the tassel on the right - Army or Navy?

[robinalexander]

Hi Geoff, 

 

I dont have a lot of experience with tassels but I have a few and have asked similar questions of memvers in the past.

 

My opinion....firstly they are probably both Navy as the IJA didnt have plain brown UNLESS the person was Gunzuko and I believe some civilians 'engaged' by the IJA, had brown tassel (might need some clarification on the Gunzuko/brown tassel)

 

In regard to colour variation, you will notice the left one is more worn and also lighter in shade.  To me that means it just seen more wear, sun, salt and rain.  Converserly, the one on the right is less worn and has a deeper 'newer' colour.

 

I think navy tassel have many shades of brown due to the conditions mentioned above and also variations in manufacturing processes and materials.  Just look at the many variations in the colour of the ito on kai guntos.

 

I like them both

Rob

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

They look to both be Navy tassels, the one on the left has thinner straps usually seen from the 30's. These earlier tassels didn't all have colourfast dyes and would fade quickly. Telling apart the brown Gunzoku from navy tassels isn't easy these days. From memory @IJASWORDS swords has good examples of both to compare clearly.

[IJASWORDS]

Tassels can vary in color, and with exposure to light more so. You actually may have found a reasonably rare tassel. Whilst the one on the right is certainly NAVY, the one on the left looks for all money like a late war NCO tassel. 

If you look at the thread on tassel storage, and go to my post, there is a photo of tassels in zip lock bags, Look carefully and you will see a bag labelled "LATE WAR NCO". These tassels replaced the normal leather variety on earlier NCO swords. 

Very rare in any condition. 

[Bruce Pennington]

37 minutes ago, IJASWORDS said:

"LATE WAR NCO"

Neil, forgive me if I've forgotten, but I don't remember this.  Have we discussed this before?  Seems new to me.

[IJASWORDS]

Never discussed before, I have found these on late war NCO's, and had it confirmed by other collectors. All swords were equipped with a sarute or hole for a tassel. I don't know the exact date or model that the leather knot ceased, I am assuming after the pattern 4.   

[Kiipu]

There are two sizes of brown tassels.  See this link below for the whole story.  See also post #68 for the info-graphic by @Stegel.

What were the regulations for the Army civilian employees to carry swords?

[Kolekt-To]

3 minutes ago, IJASWORDS said:

Never discussed before, I have found these on late war NCO's, and had it confirmed by other collectors. All swords were equipped with a sarute or hole for a tassel. I don't know the exact date or model that the leather knot ceased, I am assuming after the pattern 4.   

So, this begs the question, have some of the 3rd Version NCO swords (e.g., the "Pineapple sword", the segmented pattern wood Tsuka type, etc.) been known to have these medium-brown tassels attached? Is there photographic evidence from the war? And, please clarify if you may, I was under the impression that some late war Type 98's had these medium-brown tassels attached, instead of the typical company-grade brown & blue tassels. Also, I haven't yet had time to check out the info from IJA swords, or search this site for Neil's thread on Tassel storage, but will do that this evening.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Three navy tassels, note colour of rare zig-zag stitch example on bottom which has faded/washed out from use.

 

 

 

[Kolekt-To]

Thanks for the photo of the Navy tassels John! I have several and they are of the same dark brown/chocolate hue with some slight variation among them. From reading Nick Komiya's posts on a thread linked here, as well as posts from above in this thread, I am confident that, in my photo, the medium brown tassel on the left is a Gunzoku (Civilian) tassel (would have most likely been attached to a Type 98, from what I read), and the tassel on the right is Navy (albeit a bit faded). So... time for me to remove another Gunzoku tassel I own from... an RJT Rinji Seishiki! I'm thinking that my RS needs a standard company-grade Brown & Blue tassel, not the medium brown Gunzoku tassel that's now attached. I have really received an education about tassels this evening - thanks guys! Just have to say, the topic is a little confusing and there's a lot to digest.

[PNSSHOGUN]

One thing to add about the regulations.....I do not have supreme confidence they were followed to a letter. For a start the idea of the tassel length determining if it was Navy or Gunzoku baffles me greatly. The lengths vary so widely you would have more luck identifying them by the number of strands in the tassel ends (84 according to regulations!)........

 

For example just between the three tassels they are all different lengths, one is original to the Kai Gunto and is significantly longer than other tassels.

 

[Tom Darling]

Can someone post a closeup picture of a General rank tassel, genuine of course. Thank you.

[PNSSHOGUN]

[IJASWORDS]

This is as genuine as you get, the actual tassel photographed in Dawson's book page 159.  

[Bruce Pennington]

I bounced the idea off Nick Komiya at Warrelics of a Ko-in Gunzuko wearing a Type 95 and here is his answer:

"Why specifically a Ko-in? Type 95s were worn by NCOs and officers alike by the end of the war, due to officer sword shortages, so a Gunzoku Hanninkan or Ko-in, both requiring all brown tassels could have worn Type 95s, too. Higher grade Gunzoku also could wear Type 95s, but with tassels with colored backsides."

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a picture of several of mine that I made for the Warrelics discussion:

 

[Kiipu]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:28 PM, IJASWORDS said:

Never discussed before, I have found these on late war NCO's, and had it confirmed by other collectors. All swords were equipped with a sarute or hole for a tassel. I don't know the exact date or model that the leather knot ceased, I am assuming after the pattern 4.   

 

This is the only unusual brown tassel that I can recall; however, the tassel is incomplete.  The colorization is a bit unusual and kinda reminds me of one owned by John, except his had a distinct zig-zag pattern to it.  Nonetheless, it is worthy of taking a look at just in case another should show up.

@Stegel & @PNSSHOGUN

 

Quote

I have a pattern 7 with the remains of a tassel only, the actual fringe had been cut off, but I can't say it is legit as the pattern is most unusual.  The size of the strap is a perfect match to the normal shin gunto tassel, so unless shoe laces came in that size, it should not be an old shoe lace which has been added!, but most likely added IMO.

Short Development History of Type 95 Gunto, Post #225

[Kolekt-To]

Very nice set of tassels Bruce - you've inspired me to acquire a few more. Lol

[robinalexander]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:10 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Here's a picture of several of mine that I made for the Warrelics discussion:

Bruce,

 

I would really like to open my own tassel discussion so could you make me a few as well?  

[Bruce Pennington]

As I always say - Communication is a terrible thing!