Bruce Pennington Stamp Alert!

[DTM72]

This one has me stumped. A person local to me asked me to translate his WWII katana. It is in gunto mounts, but dated with a Meiji date. It also has what appear to be arsonal marks that None of my Fuller & Gregory books show. The signature is throwing me off too. First symbol looks like Ko. Since this is a military type sword I did not post in the translation section.

 

Help me with this one, please! Thanks in advance to everyone.

[Bruce Pennington]

Dan,

Quite interesting!  The kanji on top are in Tensho script.  If you don't get a translation of either that or the mei soon, post it in the Translation Assistance forum.  I'll put it in the Warrelics forum too.  Nick Komiya is good at these Tensho items.

[Bruce Pennington]

Also, can I get a photo of the date, please?

[DTM72]

7 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Also, can I get a photo of the date, please?

August of Meiji 21

 

What is interesting about this one, the nakago was turned down at the end and threaded. I am guessing that it was in Kyu-Gunto fittings, then later put into Army Gunto fittings. The blade is also in the kogarasu-maru configuration...very interesting.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, it was definitely made for a kyugunto.

 

Have you deciphered the date?  I don't know what that 3rd kanji is "Meiji ? 1 year August month"

[DTM72]

14 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Yes, it was definitely made for a kyugunto.

 

Have you deciphered the date?  I don't know what that 3rd kanji is "Meiji ? 1 year August month"

Meiji Ju Ju Ichi so Meiji 21

The Ju Ju 十十  together threw me off too. 

 

 

[SteveM]

It's not quite 十十 , rather its one of the variants of 廿 (20) listed on the page below. (But, you're not wrong for assuming its 10+10, as all of these alternatives are more or less variations on that theme). 

 

https://glyphwiki.org/wiki/u5eff

[Bruce Pennington]

Sheesh!  How many ways do they need to spell "20"?!  Thanks Steve!

 

So August 1888

[Kiipu]

Cross-References to the same sword.

Meiji date help

and

Help with Mei and Tensho Script

 

[Bruce Pennington]

@Brandon_Lane - Nick Komiya, at Warrelics - has requested a really clear close-up of the seal script stamp.  Any chance?

 

Oops, I put that question to the wrong guy!  Sorry Brandon!  @DTM72 any chance of an improved photo of that seal script?

[DTM72]

16 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

@Brandon_Lane - Nick Komiya, at Warrelics - has requested a really clear close-up of the seal script stamp.  Any chance?

 

Oops, I put that question to the wrong guy!  Sorry Brandon!  @DTM72 any chance of an improved photo of that seal script?

The photos I posted are the only ones i have from the owner. He lives about 2 hours away from me so we are communicating via text and email. I will ask for a better pic of the seals.

[SteveM]

I saw Nick's comments regarding the stamps on the other site. The four characters of the name Murata Tsuneyoshi (村田経芳) are combined into a two character motif. So the components of the kanji for Murata (村＋田) are combined into one character, and the components of Tsuneyoshi (経＋芳) are combined to form another character. 

 

From Ohmura's site

村田経芳の四字を篆書して、二字に合成した刻印を打った

http://ohmura-study.net/203.html

[DTM72]

If he is willing to sell it, I think he is, what would this be worth? it is mounted in WWII gunto mounts, and they appear to be a decent quality version with pierced tsuba.

 

I don't want to short change him, but I don't want to blow a hole into my bank account. lol

[Kiipu]

5 hours ago, SteveM said:

The four characters of the name Murata Tsuneyoshi (村田経芳) are combined into a two character motif. So the components of the kanji for Murata (村＋田) are combined into one character, and the components of Tsuneyoshi (経＋芳) are combined to form another character.

 

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.  Oddly enough, I am seeing this kanji character arrangement as follows.  The top row kanji characters 1 & 2 (村田) are reading from left to right with the right side of character 1 on top of character 2.  The bottom row kanji characters 3 & 4 (経芳) are reading from right to left.  See below for a graphic depiction.  Beside myself, does anyone else see this arrangement of characters?

12 村田

43 芳経

 

@BANGBANGSAN

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.  Oddly enough, I am seeing this kanji character arrangement as follows.  The top row kanji characters 1 & 2 (村田) are reading from left to right with the right side of character 1 on top of character 2.  The bottom row kanji characters 3 & 4 (経芳) are reading from right to left.  See below for a graphic depiction.  Beside myself, does anyone else see this arrangement of characters?

12 村田

43 芳経

 

@BANGBANGSAN

Thomas

Thanks for decode these 篆字。I think they were maybe simplified as 木田芳系 or 木田芳圣 instead of full characters 村田芳経。

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Thomas

Thanks for decode these 篆字。I think they were maybe simplified as 木田芳系 or 木田芳圣 instead of full characters 村田芳経。

 

So are guys still thinking it's Tsuneyoshi?  and if so, any thoughts on it not matching the mei?

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, DTM72 said:

what would this be worth?

Dan,

I'm not up on this year's market rates, but I paid $1,400 for my Naohiro, stamped-mei, Kyu gunto, and I feel it's a fair and normal price for these.  Current markets are going nuts, though, so it may sell for more than that.

[DTM72]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:59 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Dan,

I'm not up on this year's market rates, but I paid $1,400 for my Naohiro, stamped-mei, Kyu gunto, and I feel it's a fair and normal price for these.  Current markets are going nuts, though, so it may sell for more than that.

Well, I guess I ran my mouth too much and was honest with him about what he has. He started researching at what other perfect examples have sold for at auction. Now he wants $3000 for it. Guess he is going to keep it for that price.

[PNSSHOGUN]

3000 is very ambitious.

[Bruce Pennington]

I just re-read Ohmura's page on Murata-to and he mentions an "ancient script" 2-stamp on a sword of Murata's making.  He also said:

"In addition, the Mei of "Kanemasa" or "Murata Tsuneyoshi " was cut by the sword which Tsuneyoshi Murata forge himself."  So appearantly, Murata was using the name Kanemasa on his swords.

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, DTM72 said:

Well, I guess I ran my mouth too much and was honest with him about what he has. He started researching at what other perfect examples have sold for at auction. Now he wants $3000 for it. Guess he is going to keep it for that price.

Let him keep it 

[DTM72]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Found an odd stamped Type 0 on eBay with markings on the back edge of the nakago. Thought you might want to make a note of it.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/385245587299?hash=item59b26d2763:g:zNgAAOSwVqVjfR0g&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoEdFp8wIBZhpzfEgrF5JpmyWrob%2FQSaAqnvL1luznBXiEFAZThSO5YUmnc2YFOy0l1F40r2QMbpswWqnct91GJBY95dXueCRa8ou5ZUlJvVkoWE6uT87pvO7LDgXqdGNF81gOz8qKgxqZHgnGKl2z4KcQ07eBYoFsMuO%2BUjpLw%2B%2Fi4tRJTyQn5p8uFp9nS9UWVYUJrmflgeTxsOk%2F4U4UGc%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR9SK26mZYQ

[Bruce Pennington]

16 hours ago, DTM72 said:

Found an odd stamped Type 0

Thanks Dan, good one!  The mune numbers are not rare.  I have found them on blades of numerous smiths, almost all of them RJT, or pre-RJT, but this is the first one that was mumei.  The large "1" seems, to me, to be some sort of inspector number, while the 100 is some sort of tracking, or serialization.  The "1" stamps, and "2", and others often have arsenal stamps, too, like Osaka or Nagoya, even "Ho" of Kokura.  So, it isn't exclusive to a single arsenal.  Most of them are in RS mounts, like this one.

[Bruce Pennington]

Couldn't get the other photos in that single post:

[Kiipu]

20 hours ago, DTM72 said:

Found an odd stamped Type 0 on eBay with markings on the back edge of the nakago.

 

Thanks Dan.  I have run into this Type 100 marking variation before.  The seller of serial number 2-95 was of the opinion that it was made by Nagamitsu.  The location of the serial number on the nakago mune indicates it was made under the supervision of Ōsaka Army Arsenal.  The Ōsaka swords that are serialized on the nakago mune can be either traditional (RJT) or nontraditional manufacture.

WTS Nagamitsu sword

[Bruce Pennington]

18 hours ago, Kiipu said:

The seller of serial number 2-95 was of the opinion that it was made by Nagamitsu. 

Just looked at a few Nagamitsu on file, and agree.  The nakago and yasurime, or almost lack of it, is classic for his style.

[John C]

Bruce:

Another interesting numbered nakago. Looks like a kai gunto (souvenir mounts?) with 516 stamped at the bottom. But it looks as if the numbers were made using a mei chisel rather than a number stamp.

More pics here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/225292417867?hash=item3474797b4b%3Ag%3AL1sAAOSwcpNjlUTM&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoBbnJvOl26RRfqmo7F0XB6IUU7M%2BcldZ%2FzWTyxei0lTZEn0PaxiD9ZUiOp74qUa1Iwe6oaz2YUEqcK0zU5Nc4aWLncK3JGVuUtSo55%2BKsGrLJzXZG%2Bm91LNAh5ubRtr0sZnBo%2F%2FlqK8je%2B2sh%2Fjxz1CvaMmh%2Fsx8bH7HEhyoAV2xiGGRt75PPqXcEaeM7QivfvIK1KD6cyxv8Vzu7rKTlxA%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4yn9JGhYQ&LH_ItemCondition=4|10

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Great one John, thanks!  That's on a REALLY nice kaigunto, custom saya.  The mei says "Tsukushi Suetsugu".  Don't see a Showe era Suetsugu, but Sesko lists some from early eras, so it's likely a WWII smith assuming the name.  After some eye-balling, I'd put the number at "316".  You can just see the faint line angling down to make the 3.

 

@SteveM @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN somebody care to double check my translation?  If BTW, what is the meaning of the "Tsukushi"?

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

筑紫（國）Tsukushi Province   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukushi_Province

末次 Suetsugu

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Trystan!!!  An interesting update:  As I was filing this, I found that I also have a Tsukushi Shigemitsu 234, and in the Japanese sword Index, there is a "Tsukushi Suetsugu Shigemitsu" mei! 

shigmits.jpg (61×550) (japaneseswordindex.com)

 

It appears to be the same guy!  For some reason, he's signed this blade with only his province and first name.  Hm.

 

And the sale is from our own @matthewbrice - Good luck with the sale Matt, it's a gorgeous kaigunto!