Meiji date help

[DTM72]

I am having trouble figuring out the kanji after the Meiji kanji

明

治

十十 <- What am I seeing here? Is this Ju Ju = 20?

一

年

八

月

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, that would be correct, so Meiji 21.

There are several alternate ways to write many of the numbers. 

[DTM72]

Much appreciated Piers!

[DTM72]

  On 8/27/2021 at 11:58 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Yes, that would be correct, so Meiji 21.

There are several alternate ways to write many of the numbers. 

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I have been chatting with Bruce Pennington on the stamps and the mei. All of these have me stumped. I have looked through my Dawson and the Fuller & Gregory books and cannot identify these stamps.

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Dan, 

 

It might be the sword smith’s seal rather than an inspection stamp. It’s in seal script so if you can do something like add talcum powder to pick out the text more clearly you might get a reading.

[DTM72]

  On 8/27/2021 at 2:57 PM, Shugyosha said:

Hi Dan, 

 

It might be the sword smith’s seal rather than an inspection stamp. It’s in seal script so if you can do something like add talcum powder to pick out the text more clearly you might get a reading.

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Any guess on the mei itself?

[Shugyosha]

Sorry Dan, it’s quite stylised - I think we have to wait for the cavalry: SteveM or Nobody san. 

[DTM72]

  On 8/27/2021 at 2:57 PM, Shugyosha said:

Hi Dan, 

 

It might be the sword smith’s seal rather than an inspection stamp. It’s in seal script so if you can do something like add talcum powder to pick out the text more clearly you might get a reading.

Expand  

Best I have so far is the first kanji Ko 小

 

[SteveM]

It's either a Murata-sword, or someone trying to fake a Murata-sword.  

The first two are 小銃囗囗. If this were a Murata sword, the last two characters should be 兼正 (Kanemasa).

Obviously the ones on this sword are different. Possibly 元定 (Motosada). But as far as I know he only used Kanemasa with the surname Shōjū. The stamps say Murata Tsuneyoshi in stylized tenshō script.

The stamps, the idiosyncratic "20", the 小銃 all point to a Murata sword. What does the sword itself look like?

 

 

 

[DTM72]

  On 8/27/2021 at 3:20 PM, SteveM said:

It's either a Murata-sword, or someone trying to fake a Murata-sword.  

The first two are 小銃囗囗. If this were a Murata sword, the last two characters should be 兼正 (Kanemasa).

Obviously the ones on this sword are different. Possibly 元定 (Motosada). But as far as I know he only used Kanemasa with the surname Shōjū. The stamps say Murata Tsuneyoshi in stylized tenshō script.

The stamps, the idiosyncratic "20", the 小銃 all point to a Murata sword. What does the sword itself look like?

 

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If it's a copy of a Murata, they did well.

[DTM72]

Sorry, these are the pics he sent to me, after the fact.

[Bruce Pennington]

Wonder why the stamps would be for Tsuneyoshi, but the smith name is something else?

[DTM72]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:31 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Wonder why the stamps would be for Tsuneyoshi, but the smith name is something else?

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Great question! 1888 is when General Murata was experimenting with this type of blade and consulting with may smiths about the forging of blades. Maybe a collaboration? IDK

 

Below is a table from Kiipu back in November 2020 about Murata blades. Could this one be a stand-out?

 

[Kiipu]

First things first. Cross-references to the same sword.

Bruce Pennington Stamp Alert!

and

Help with Mei and Tensho Script

 

The table above is coming from Murata Swords 村田刀 .

[Bruce Pennington]

This one is the second oldest date compared to that chart.

 

@Brandon_Lane - no numbers stamped anywhere on the nakago?

[DTM72]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:56 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

This one is the second oldest date compared to that chart.

 

@Brandon_Lane - no numbers stamped anywhere on the nakago?

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As far as I know, there are no other numbers, Arabic or otherwise, stamped on the nakago.

[DTM72]

Could the signature possibly be  包定 (Kanesada) but just a very stylized version?

[Peter Bleed]

This has been a challenging - BUT very interesting thread. I think the blade will also prove to be interesting. In 200 years that may be the kind of blade that is shown to open a new historic era.

Peter