Koto sword recently won on eBay any feedback appreciated

[Utopianarian]

I apologize to for my comments to Peter. I also apologize to everyone on the board for my behavior. I enjoy the great people on this board and their support. I have received the blade and wanted the see what you guys think. I’ve noticed some interesting things. It looks like an old kirikomi strike on ha side of Nakago which may be why blade was moved up and altered to save blade. Measurements: Nagasa 69.53 cm Motohaba 3.06cm sakihaba 2.02cm nakago nagasa 23.18cm motokasane 0.65cm saki kasane 0.42cm kissaki 3.3cm sori 1.5cm. I also took close up of Ana at bottom that was cut down thru it. It has patina and doesn’t look recent. Does it still have a chance to be other than Kanbun. Others with more knowledge and experience may have a better understanding on this. The best that I can see as far as hamon is very faint sections that cover About 3/4 cm in width along the blade. Can’t make out the pattern of hamon

[Utopianarian]

more pics

[Utopianarian]

[Utopianarian]

Also to add. The two piece Habaki fits well to the blade. 

[Utopianarian]

Here is a comparison next to an older blade I have. This blade is on the right. I am embarrassed to say that I can’t tell if Shinto or not 😞

[Utopianarian]

After study of blade or at least what I can make of it so far in its present condition is Shinto era would be my guess. Any other guesses appreciated. Thank you

[Utopianarian]

I don’t feel so bad now about having hard time with the estimation or era of sword based on sugata. This is a tough one I guess, lol 

[AntiquarianCat]

Hello George,

I agree, it’s an interesting sword and it’s a pretty good game in trying to guess what it is.

 

I am still leaning towards Kanbun: the blade has significant taper and I can’t find traits hinting at significant curvature lost to shortening. 
 

With greatly shortened koto pieces, I’ve sometimes seen the hints of the their lost Koshi Sori in the nakago. How it curves and keeps showing signs of ongoing curvature even past the truncated part. Yours doesn’t seem to do that, as if this were close to what it’s maximum curvature was like and the shape hasn’t changed much. I hope my example shows what I’m trying to say.

[Utopianarian]

That is a very good point Juan. Yes there isn’t much curvature going into the nakago. Also I included pics of the kasane of the nakago that might give a clue as well which would show tapering of the thickness of nakago. I think however you are correct

[Utopianarian]

Another pic

[Utopianarian]

I wonder if it was common if they sometimes modified or shaved down the back or mune side of the nakago which would alter its shape

[AntiquarianCat]

Thank you! Yes I’ll be honest in saying I’m not good at telling how and if a nakago has been reshaped.

 

That said, the Shinogi ridge in yours is pretty straight and linear so that makes me think there wasn’t a lot of curvature lost when yours was shortened.

[Utopianarian]

Yes, I have very limited knowledge prob less than most on that subject as well. It is very hard being at that time they modeled the old cut down tachi in that era. 

[Alex A]

Hello, 

 

Very difficult from images but your blade appears to have a decent amount of fumbari.

 

In the picture with the older blade, it appears more obvious.

 

Some info types of kissaki form (ksky.ne.jp)

 

A tricky one.

[Utopianarian]

Thank you Alex for the information 

[Geraint]

Dear George.

 

I don't think you should be embarrassed about your inability to tell the period of this blade, after all we have guesses ranging from n early tachi through Kanbun Shinto.  (I might have missed it but I don't think anyone has suggested Shinshinto revival yet!)  As it's out of polish and you can't see any of the indicators of hamon or boshi that makes the job worse.

 

Bazza raised some interesting points about the slightly unnatural shape to the nakago which are worth looking into.  The process of suriage is sometimes done very well and sometimes less so.  The mune line on this sword does seem to dip toward the ha, don't you think?   Making assumptions about the original sugata based on what now remains of the nakago is tricky.  Was the nakago shape altered when suriage was carried out?  If not then you would expect to see a nakago of pretty much consistent width over it's length and the proportions of the hira ji and shinogi ji remaining the same.

The fact that the habaki fits simply means that it was made for the sword after surige, we have no way of telling how much after.

Again, Bazza draws attention to the nagasa and suggests that the original length is worth factoring in to your deliberations.  Kanbun Shinto swords are typically around 70cms.

I have to disagree with Alex regarding the fumbari, ironically I was going to link to a page which defines it only to find that it is the same page that he linked to regarding the kissaki form.  Just scroll down a bit. Fumbari is a specific narrowing just above the machi, not an overall tapering of the blade, as such it disappears when suriage is performed.  

 

You have taken a gamble with this one and I can see why you were tempted.  The only degree of certainty you are going to get now is polish and shinsa.

 

Looking forward to seeing how this one turns out.

 

All the best.

[Alex A]

Difficult enough in hand, never mind pictures 

 

Just had the impression that if the blade continued to broaden if suriage, then it would be one hell of a blade at the hamachi in its full original form.

 

In some photos that looks the case and in others it dont.

 

Still, always good trying to work them out.

 

Hope it turns out the way you want.

 

Cheers

[SAS]

Good candidate for a window polish to see what is there.

[AntiquarianCat]

I’ve been told by a more experienced member than I, that that type of very slow taper that picks up around the middle is Kanbun “fumbari“ and part of what made me lean towards that time period or something in that style.

 

And I agree, it could just as easily be Shinshinto given its size.

[Utopianarian]

Thank you all for your help on this one. I come to a conclusion that it is Kanbun which many of you already said. There are many atypical features on the blade which made it tough. I am returning the blade as it is not worth restoration. Thank you Bazza, Alex, Juan and the rest including seller Bteed3 whom is an honest upstanding seller on eBay 

[TheGermanBastard]

1 hour ago, Utopianarian said:

I am returning the blade as it is not worth restoration.

 

Do you mean you are going to send it back to the seller? If yes, may I ask for what reason?

[Alex A]

Hello, 

 

Dont be so sure its Kanbun, as said, tricky.

 

All this best done before purchase., not after

 

 

 

 

[Utopianarian]

Yes, the reason for return is blade advertised on eBay as Koto blade. The blade is not koto. As you prob already read in this post the seller stated and communicated to me that I could return if not satisfied and was very honest stating it may not be koto as he is more familiar with Gendai blades which he mentioned in this post as you prob already read. The seller also messaged me stating no hassle return if I didn’t want to restore or for whatever reason. Brandon is one of the rare honest eBay sellers out there and was more than willing to answer questions and communicate in a friendly manner. Highly recommend especially for WW2 swords which he is most knowledgeable 

[Utopianarian]

I still have a Shinto blade dressed in WW2 Gunto that I bought from a member on the board here that I paid way over what it was worth especially that I noticed the fittings were not original and some replaced and the wooden saya painted fairly recently in a brick red sloppily done even the seppa and splatter areas of paint on samegawa skin underneath. The wrapping was also not original and loosely wrapped and habaki not original the blade not even close. The blade was advertised as koto but definitely after. I didn’t make a big deal about it since I examined the blade from pics and once I got the blade in hand I knew immediately what is was and what it was not. I chalked that one up to experience and took a hit on that one. We all I know had that happen at one time or another. It is best to communicate to seller or know return policy 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Do you have pics of the mounts on that one?

[Utopianarian]

These are pics on my phone I am not home to get better pics

[Utopianarian]

[Utopianarian]

[PNSSHOGUN]

Blade looks nice, can't tell anything about the mounts yet but paint looks very fresh in that last pic!

[Bazza]

I must say it looks less like paint than real lacquer - urushi?????  Note the ishime-like appearance.

 

BaZZa.