Real or fake?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Can anyone explain this one, halfway between an NCO and a Zohei-To......or make believe garbage? https://www.ebay.com/itm/274890568132?hash=item4000c131c4:g:3moAAOSwrYxhCdG7

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Adding a couple more of the photos:

Calling @Stegel and @Shamsy!!!

 

My gut says fantasy piece.  The 95 parts seem legit, but that serial number - 109 - ?????  That would mean this should be a copper handled 95.  The saya throat number is too blurry, but seems to match.  To my eyes, the ito, same' and menugi look new, yet in the poor and dark photo of the full tsuka, it looks damaged (of course that could be faked too).  Will try to lighten/enhance that one and will edit if it helps.

 

There were plenty 95s rented and bought by officers during the war.  So this one COULD be one of those.  The owner could have had the tuska and other fittings modified befitting his officer status.  Just depends on what Ernie and Steve think of the serial number.  Type-set looks poor for a legit 95 number to me.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Brian,

Any chance of spinning this off from post #96 as a new thread?

 

The saya has that goldish undercoat like the copper-handled 95s used, so that would seem to support the idea that the saya was original.  The screw on the sayajiri appear to have a silver-color like steel or aluminum.  I'm no expert on WWII screws, but I've only seen copper screws on these, which would indicate a post-war add-on.

 

Still leaning toward post-war fantasy piece with real parts.

[BANGBANGSAN]

I think the scabbard is original to this sword by adding a Type 98 Ishizuke 石突。

[Shamsy]

Honestly, I really don't know with this one. I don't have 109 listed in my Pattern 1 database, though I have about 20 swords to add when I have time and energy to update. Stegel may have different records to me.

 

The stamps look correct, as does the saya. If there was ever a 'real' example of a private purchase sword that was modified to look like an officer sword, I would say this is a good candidate.

 

Could it also be a project by someone with parts or a fabrication of a 'rare' sword? absolutely.

 

That's about all I have to say. If someone wants to buy this, then please share it with the forum when you get a hands-on look.

[Shamsy]

  On 8/4/2021 at 7:11 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

I think the scabbard is original to this sword by adding a Type 98 Ishizuke 石突。

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Oh, should have commented. It 100% is and it is correct for the serial number range of the Pattern 1. You can clearly see the curved 'shoe' shaped brass plug of the saya in the photo, under the added officers cap.

[lonely panet]

its a head scratcher as to why, but also take not that all parts are of the time peroid.

 

so many possibilities, but the ito work looks good compared to DIY back yarders.

 

couldnt be worse then this

RARE! Antique Japanese WW2 1899 Short (Dagger) Cavalry Sword All Original LOOK! | eBay

[ChrisW]

That is horrifying. A real hackjob. I can imagine that nakago is completely butchered to bits. It might have been a really nice naginata at one point, sadly no longer.

[lonely panet]

but not its a really cool pirate swoooord grrrr

[ChrisW]

Yarr. There be sharks in the water at the cove of eBay.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Here is a similar blade but in officer mounts: https://www.ebay.com/itm/265195228837?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=84i%2FvCoo%2FZ2CbPcP8CpK84BF53E%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc

[Shamsy]

Just too add one comment more. I think a Type 95 blade in officer mounts would be infinity more likely to be genuine than an officers blade in 95 mounts. Blades were obviously in shortage, but I've not seen anything to suggest koshirae were ever hard to obtain. I can easily imagine an officer remount a 95 blade they purchased and owned, but absolutely don't believe an NCO would do the same for their issued sword.

 

Always an exception though.

[Kolekt-To]

Pretty sure this is the one that sold today on eBay for $2247.00. Two bidders really wanted that sword. The bids jumped by a thousand dollars from prior bids to the final few bids. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Maybe next time when we saw it ，it already had the copper handle replaced and double priced

[Bruce Pennington]

I believe there is at least one other thread discussing officer gunto with NCO, Type 95 tsuka, but I can't find it, so I'm posting here.  This is from John Plimpton's new book, Swords of the Emperor.  He's listed it as an officer sword.  You can see the fuchi is well made and fits the tsuka perfectly, so I doubt it's a post-war piece-together.  One drawback to the book is that there are no, and I mean NO, blades in it.  So we don't know if the blade in this is an NCO blade.  It would have been good to know.  

Also, he mentions this "variant type was often used by paratroopers."  There is a bibliography in the back of the book, but he doesn't state, here, his source for such a claim.  Boy, the paratroopers and NLF seem to be the go-to guys for every odd-ball sword people find.  I suspect this is more along the lines of this thread.  I bet there is an NCO blade in this and it's a custom job for an officer during the peak of the sword shortage.

 

[John C]

  On 4/11/2023 at 1:51 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

officer gunto with NCO, Type 95 tsuka,

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Interesting that the write-up includes the tsuba as being made of aluminum. Was that common?

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Actually, I didn’t know they existed!

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 4/11/2023 at 1:51 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

One drawback to the book is that there are no, and I mean NO, blades in it.  So we don't know if the blade in this is an NCO blade.  It would have been good to know.  

 

 

 

 

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Bruce

You can ask @mdiddy Matt and see if he still got that sword. It has a 源良近 blade.

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 4/11/2023 at 5:00 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Actually, I didn’t know they existed!

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Bruce, you had seen them before and replied to the thread.

[Shamsy]

  On 4/11/2023 at 1:51 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Also, he mentions this "variant type was often used by paratroopers."  There is a bibliography in the back of the book, but he doesn't state, here, his source for such a claim.  Boy, the paratroopers and NLF seem to be the go-to guys for every odd-ball sword people find.

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"Boy, the paratroopers and NLF seem to be the go-to guys for every odd-ball sword people find". Yep, I feel we're at least thinking along the same lines, Bruce. So here we go. People making up unsubstantiated names/designations and because it's in a book, new collectors won't question it and a new myth is born.

 

Funny these are "often used", yet this is the only example I've seen. Anyone got another on record? And no, the 'second example' isn't exactly what I'd call the same, it just has SOME of the same characteristics, which means absolutely nothing I'm afraid.

 

Sorry for the rant, but this kind of invented nonsense just muddies the waters and is such a disservice to collectors.

 

I look forward to the strong denial responses, which I suspect will have nothing to back them up.

 

Edit: Because I see it coming a mile away. I'm NOT making comment on the sword here. Check the thread Bangbangsan linked for those. I am purely talking about the implications and consequences that reckless, unsourced and unsubstantiated names and claims have in this field if study.

[John C]

  On 4/11/2023 at 9:39 PM, Shamsy said:

this kind of invented nonsense just muddies the waters and is such a disservice to collectors.

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I actually made that same argument on a different thread about a label used in the book.

John C.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

When I see pieces like this illustrated, with short inaccurate descriptions and no references to the blades in them, I wonder if the book is something that I should bother getting.

Ian Brooks

[PNSSHOGUN]

That is one area all the current reference books lack, the focus is entirely on the mounts with little to no discussion/detail of the blades. Whoever is able to produce a really top class book combining the two will render a great service to the collecting community.

[robinalexander]

Sorry I'm late on this thread.

 

Just an observation in regard to the habaki on the originally posted sword (PNSSHOGUN).......correct me if I am wrong (as if I should ask ) but the markings on the habaki go crossways rather than being smooth or possibly length ways.

 

I haven't noticed that before on 95's and if that is not a std 95 habaki then it may add weight to the theory that it was an officers purchase and the habaki was professionally refitted to the blade.

 

Not being a friction fit in this case, the actual exterior dimensions of the habaki would be less important.

 

Rob