Glutton for Punishment

[Spartancrest]

I just bought this ugly duckling that needs probably more than a good clean up. It is very far gone but even the infirm need a home!

What caught my eye was several Chinese fakes of very similar design that were selling for more than what I paid.

https://www.jauce.com/auction/r306153157      https://www.jauce.com/auction/v663567475  The intriguing thing is the number of copies of genuine guards, how do they copy them without the original piece?  Copy and replicate the image or is it more "here, make something close that will fool the novice"? 

 

[lonely panet]

i can only aski why ?? you will never save anything that past its date.

 

that aside i would say not a repro but a bin'o'

 

if your looking for cheap and cheerfull this large tempo is well priced.

★ ☆ Excellent product Super large iron brim Tenpo quince engraved sound good ☆ ★ | Jauce Shopping Service | Yahoo Japan Auctions. EBay Japan

[Shugyosha]

A couple of decades in your trouser pocket should do it if you’re patient but I’d be reaching for the Hammerite. 

[vajo]

Dale i bought this wreckage 2019.

After 2 years of care it look like this. The tsuba has no worth or any collecting value but i like it and have this old warrior often in hands.

Good luck with yours.

 

 

I do nothing special. Only cleaning with warm water and soap. Drying and oiling every day with a natural cotton towel. The patination came back. Some kind of self healing of the metal 

[Spartancrest]

Good for you Chris - maybe we are archaeological collectors? Even worn out pieces can be worthwhile they tell a story and at least you can figure out what happens if you neglect maintenance!  I think you are on to something with the cotton towel, guards do come up better after a good going over with cotton. Anyone know if cotton was a fabric available in Edo times? I find silk does not give as good results.

 

John J. -  I am not sure I will have a few decades - let alone trousers - would continence pants work? Heck just buying it could be a symptom of dementia setting in!

But I would rather buy a rust bucket than a shiny new fake.

 

[Japan2112]

Chris, your re-do is impressive. I like the results of your mild and careful cleaning.

What I have come to learn is that too much rubbing can be harmful to a patina that is close to what you want. In your case the project was warranted,

[Spartancrest]

It has been a while in getting to me [understatement] but the rusty namban and 'friends' arrived today - I couldn't stand the condition it was in so I spent several hours cleaning boiling and scrubbing the rust and filth off. Some obvious corrosion loss and a few of the undercut tendrils were long gone but I am happier with its appearance so far - it still needs a lot of work. 

[GRC]

You got those results with the boiling method? I've been too scared to try that one lol

I'm impressed that you brought that one back from the brink of extinction! 

I also love that you paid less for it than the modern repros   

[Spartancrest]

Thanks Glen. I was just about to add this image and information from a Christies Auction back in 2015 -  There is a statement about the nakago-ana not 'nagagohitsu' as they call it, being a hidden Christian cross. I have seen these on many namban including the one I just received, but I think that it being a hidden cross is a stretch too far - way too far!! 

[roger dundas]

Dale (and Glen) and anyone else if you care to respond- Just where do these old relics figure in the scheme of things? I well appreciate that many and possibly most collectors here would shun these somewhat disfigured tsuba, damaged by neglect and lack of care.

I personally don't mind some of them and sometimes in a museum collection a less than well cared for tsuba will appear (not often I must admit).

Earlier on, two or three years back, I posted a rough old piece on the NMB here and one very knowledgeable member said that he could see merit  in some of them but he had an appreciation and first hand knowledge of excavated, archaeological tools and weapons from earlier European times.

Just wondering.

Roger j

[Brian]

Excellent clean up job!

[Ford Hallam]

sorry to be the bad cop, as it seems to be my burden...

 

But, it appears that the seki-gane are of the same metal, cast steel/iron as the body of the tsuba.....

[Rivkin]

Far from being a tosogu person, but:

the ones of such shape supposed to imitate either rapier's guard or a similar continental device.

They tend to have cross-shaped ana since all European and Chinese ana are rectangular and thus remade tsuba would have a combination of native rectangle and Japanese triangle. However there are exceptionally few (contrary to a popular sentiment) cases where the rectangle is indeed original, usually among Hizen tsubas, and almost all are Japanese imitations.

Also geometry is quite different compared to anything European or continent related, including guards made for European market.

[Spartancrest]

Sorry Ford but there are no seki-gane at all on this guard, there is a niku like outline around the entire nakago-ana just as in the Christie's piece. From the rather deep tagane-ato punch marks that have definitely moved some metal into the hole, I can't see even an annealed cast iron taking the hit without cracking the whole thing. There is also a lot of undercutting and though it does not show well in the image [old digital camera] there are almost microscopic scales carved into the two dragon bodies and the masks(?) or demon faces have kebori eyebrows and some have inlaid eyes [corrosion has removed about half] I apologize for the image quality I may have to do a high resolution scan. I am not worried particularly, the thing only cost $60 because of the condition it was in and it will never be going off for Shinsa assessment. [ I read somewhere recently that they don't like doing assessments on Namban anyway.]

[Ford Hallam]

My bad, Dale, sorry, late at night and tired eyes. Your assessment seems perfectly correct this morning. I've bought a few similarly heavily corroded pieces in the past, simply to remove the corrosion product to examine the iron structure. It can be a very enlightening study.

[Spartancrest]

No Ford, my bad photo. You are very correct about what you can find under the corrosion, it was a total surprise to me - I have recently had both eye cataracts replaced and can see things now that used to be a blur, but the original image wouldn't have made much difference. What struck me with this guard is the tiny details, so tiny in fact I can't help wondering why they bothered? I mean why go to the trouble of carving details you would be at a stretch to see in daylight with a magnifying glass? It is such a shame that the previous owner/s didn't look after it. [ not that I could have afforded it if it was pristine ]

[GRC]

Roger, in response to your question:

On 11/17/2021 at 12:43 AM, roger dundas said:

Dale (and Glen) and anyone else if you care to respond- Just where do these old relics figure in the scheme of things? I well appreciate that many and possibly most collectors here would shun these somewhat disfigured tsuba, damaged by neglect and lack of care.

I'd say "whatever floats your boat"! 

If there's something about a tsuba that grabs my attention for some reason, then I'll often let some "condition issues" take a back seat in the decision making process.

 

It really depends what your budget range is, what stage you're at in your collecting, whether or not you want to add a certain shape or style to complete some sort of visual display, or for study purposes (like Ford pointed out), or even sometimes just to play around with "salvage" techniques and rescue something form the dead!

***Just be mindful of what you "experiment on" so that you don't erase the historical value of something that should be "preserved" rather than "restored".

Save your experimenting for the ones that look like they made it through the zombie apocalypse. 

 

I also see some stupid prices for poor quality modern day castings for people to ornament their swords with...

,but I always wonder WHY people do that  when you can easily buy a legitimate, hand worked, skillfully crafted, period tsuba for far less money!

Granted, it's probably not going to be signed or be made by some renowned school, but it'll be an authentic antique tsuba that you can appreciate and admire for what it is and whose hands it has passed through in the past.

BTW, I personally own a genuine "raft and cherry blossom" tsuba with gold accents on the blossoms, that I paid less money for than that horrible casting...

 

There are some really nicely crafted antique tsuba that can be purchased in the $60-100 dollar range, that could use just a little TLC and not some dramatic overhaul. That's not counting the extra fees, shipping and customs that comes along with buying from Japan, but still, it ends up being far less expanse than a $200 modern piece of cast garbage that they really should only be charging $10 for anyway...

 This one just sold for $50 USD! You can't go wrong with that and whoever won it, got a great deal!

 

All that is just to say, have at it Roger 

As your collection grows, you'll eventually part with some of your earlier purchases, and those ones will be "just right" for some other collector who is just starting out.

And at least these tsuba won't end up completely wasting away somewhere as piles of crumbling rust.

 

That's my two cents...

 

[Spartancrest]

Roger, sorry I should have got back to you. Like Glen said whatever floats your boat.

Like it or not there are two types of collector - the Curator or the Dealer [some are both]. We believe we own our purchases but really we are renting them from history - just like real estate renters there are good and bad - I can't see that a clean up after the last renter has trashed the place is a bad idea, but like the real estate renter you shouldn't go knocking holes in the walls or take out a window to make 'improvements' so to speak. Buy what appeals to you and keep them safe, you might get more out of them than just getting your bond back!

Glen: Isn't it weird that people buy this modern crap when they could be part of history? Instead, opting to be contributors to the landfill generation.

[GRC]

Yup, blows my mind every time Dale 

[roger dundas]

Enjoyed reading your take on things so thanks Glen and Dale.

The reason for looking for opinions is that last year I bought this old, neglected tsuba from Japan because it was so cheap and I like this design with the 'perforations'- even though it was very much down in condition. I must have been bored at the time, have better examples and wouldn't bother again.  It took forever to escape from Japan, costing a lot more in postage etc. Happy to have it but one is enough as far as I am concerned.

Here it is below, 60 x 55.5 x 5.5

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[GRC]

Looks like a Heianjo school tsuba with a "water wheel" theme, but it has lost the majority of its brass inlays. It would have been a real looker in its day.

From the shape of the hitsu-ana (the tall narrow oval hole), my hunch is that its an early piece with a fair bit of age to it. Pretty cool to think of how long it's been around, and how many swords it's been on.

Nice piece of history there  so don't feel shy about it.

[Spartancrest]

Still working on the namban, it is developing colour but that doesn't help with the corrosion damage. Probably stands out more than when the guard was more matte?

[Bugyotsuji]

Tell people that you found it on the riverbed Glen! I think these old tsuba are great, and perfect to try out techniques upon as others have probably given up on them. Definitely plenty to learn from each and every one. Roger, yours is great too. I agree with Glen; what’s not to like about it. (Almost edible, like an oatcake!)

[ROKUJURO]

3 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

....doesn't help with the corrosion damage.....

Dale,

you cannot add material to the item, that's the problem!  What is lost is lost! Technically seen, that would be possible, but unfortunately not with an antique TSUBA.

[Bugyotsuji]

Jean "you cannot add material to the item", yes, but you can add surface smoothness, 'patina', and TLC.