Mumei tanto in Koshirae

[Bugyotsuji]

Bought a tanto in koshirae the other day for a song, mainly as a study piece. Cursory examination shows it to be a collection of both good and bad, but I would be grateful for anything you notice about it. The blade has a single Koshi-bi Hi on one side and narrower parallel Futasuji-bi on the other. Pics to follow when I get a minute.

 

Preliminary questions.

1. The little tsuba, so small that you'd think the tanto was Aikuchi, seems to be made of wood, black and speckled with something? It is sandwiched between a collection of Seppa, not doing their job very well. Were/are wooden tsuba common?

2. There is little evidence of rust on the Nakago, despite the blade looking old to my untrained eye. Is it possible for an old blade to have a young-looking Nakago?

3. The machi has been moved up, (with a grinder?) in order to...? get the tanto blade legally under 15 cm and therefore not needing Toroku, perhaps? Is this common? Evidence of three holes having been made in the Nakago.

 

I know that much Suri-age took place to fall in line with Edo etc. edicts, but here we may have a different example of a blade being altered in modern times in order to come back within the contemporary laws.

 

In a rush!

[Marius]

Hi Piers,

 

1. An interesting thing you seem to have there. Tsuba is a guard, protecting your hand from a cut. Forged iron tsuba do their work best, kinko tsuba were possibly more for the display of wealth and taste of the owner than for combat, cast iron tsuba are fakes or Meiji tourist items, but a wood tsuba? What purpose would that have? It would not keep a blade from cutting your hand. Then agian, your sword is a tanto, and tsubas on tanto were sometimes really minuscule and they were clearly not meant to parry blows. Such tsuba could be made of iron, soft metal or anything else that the artisan happened to deem a useful material. Your tsuba seems to fit into this category.

 

2. the blade is not necessarily old OR the nakago might have been cleaned by some idiot at a certain point. Besides, "old" is relative (is a 100 years old sword "old"?). And, what precisely makes you think it is old? gendai blades are often produced as (very good) copies of celebrated swords and gendai sword smiths often emulate a certain school or master. Is it polished down? That in itself is not a reliable proof of old age, although it might serve as an indication.

 

3. what you describe seems a home-grown machi okuri done by some vandal. Is this common? Yes, machi okuri is quite common. Alterations to nihonto done with a grinder are also quite common, I am afraid. The supply of idiots who ruin good swords in order to "clean" them or make them fit into some koshirae that they happen to have at hand is quite substantial ((horror stories about ruined blades abound)

 

I don't think this will help you a lot, but at least I have tried

 

Of course pictures would be very helpful...

[John A Stuart]

Hi Mariusz, Good observations, but, pics would facilitate this better. Just one comment I would pick you up on, possibly. The tsuba's main purpose was to prevent the hand from sliding along the tsuka onto the blade causing self-injury, in fact, there is no technique I have seen (limited as it is) where the tsuba is consciously used to absorb a strike. That may be as it is, however, there were leather tsuba that would belay the point as well. Not commenting on the tanto per say or it's wooden tsuba. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for that, Mariusz. What you say fits in quite neatly with this blade. Here are some shots of the Tsuba, to start with. Notice the chunky iron-looking edge. (Edit, thanks for the comment, John)

[Bugyotsuji]

General overall shots of the koshirae, showing the little solid iron Bashin.

[Bugyotsuji]

Overall shots of the blade, and some closer inspection

[Bugyotsuji]

Sorry Brian, promise to stop with these!!! You are welcome to crop them as I don't know how! (The picture function is working for me today! )

Nakago up close both sides. Notice Munemachi and Hamachi movement.

[Marius]

Piers,

 

IMHO the nakago has been "cleaned" by an amateur and then "repatinated" It seems original, though, with oine mekugi ana filled. Koshirae: the fuchi seems awkward, it is simply to broad for that short handle. The kashira seems to come from some handachi mounts and does not correspond to the saya. I love the menuki, the rabbit is so cute :-) The wooden tsuba fits into the picture of a koshirae which has been put together from ready available parts - it looks more like a thick seppa.

 

My gut feel is: the saya and the bashin are original, the tsuka has been compiled from whatever was at hand. Actually, I like the saya and the bashin very much. All in all, if you bought it for a song, it was a very good deal. How long is the nagasa? I should think it would not exceed 20 cm?

 

The blade is also nice and good enough to be studied. Well done :-)

 

John,

 

many thanks about your comments on the primary function of a tsuba. I haven't thought about this. But given, that it was the area above hamachi which was used to parry blows of the enemy's sword (as explained by Sugano Sensei in this clip:

) I guess that the samurai preferred a tsuba which was not easily cut.

[John A Stuart]

An interesting vid of Sugano Seiichi sensei. Thanks. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Added to the function of stopping your hands slipping forwards, must be the function of the tsuba as a lip, to deflect/guide blood to run off before reaching your hands.

 

Mariusz, the total external length is 29cm.

 

The naked blade edge is 13.6 cm from the habaki to blade tip. From Nakago jiri to kissaki tip is 21 cm. The Nakago is tiny, 6 cm up to the new Machi. The Kami, starting under the Habaki is... wait for it... 14.9 cm, LOL. What a coincidence! :lol:

[Marius]

Added to the function of stopping your hands slipping forwards, must be the function of the tsuba as a lip, to deflect/guide blood to run off before reaching your hands.

 

Piers,

 

that is an interesting interpreation, but doesn't it go too far? This reminds me of calling bo-hi blood-groves, while they were made to reduce weight, balance the blade, but not with running blood in mind. I think a tsuba is a guard, which keeps your hand from being cut or slide down the blade, and that is all there is to it....

[Bugyotsuji]

Added to the function of stopping your hands slipping forwards, must be the function of the tsuba as a lip, to deflect/guide blood to run off before reaching your hands.

 

Piers,

 

that is an interesting interpreation, but doesn't it go too far? This reminds me of calling bo-hi blood-groves, while they were made to reduce weight, balance the blade, but not with running blood in mind. I think a tsuba is a guard, which keeps your hand from being cut or slide down the blade, and that is all there is to it....

 

I'm living and listening, & occasionally learning! Thanks.

 

Oh, yes. Another question. I know that tanto were not really produced in the Shinto Period, so we are looking at either a Shinshin-to blade, or something from Muromachi times. My gut feeling inclines me to the latter, older period. How would you lay your money, gentlemen?

[Marius]

 

Oh, yes. Another question. I know that tanto were not really produced in the Shinto Period, so we are looking at either a Shinshin-to blade, or something from Muromachi times. My gut feeling inclines me to the latter, older period. How would you lay your money, gentlemen?

 

 

Well, my guess would be shishinto. The pictures do not disclose too much due to the resolution, but it seems that this tanto is muji hada. Also, it seems rather healthy and thick, while you get more chance of a slightly polished down blade when it's a koto (although there are no rules here). I don't get the hamon, seems indistinct, I cannot see the pattern clearly, but might it be uma no ha, or maybe hako midare? The nioiguchi is not distinct, maybe because the blade lacks a fresh polish (I would not invest in a polish here).

 

The shape does not correspond with Muromachi, either. But overall - it is really hard to tell anything conclusive from these pictures.

 

What I have said here, at the risk of becoming the object of ridicule, is just my uneducated opinion, so it might be just the other way around

[John A Stuart]

Further to that video by Sugano sensei, I wonder if I am understanding him correctly when he says that the defensive portion of the sword is the last third and used to deflect or absorb a strike by using the ha, since, it is the stronger part of the blade. I agree that the last third would be the best area for defensive techniques, it is so also with European sword play, being the 'forte'. I do not believe that the edge should be preferentially used as opposed to the flat of the blade (the shinogi surface). There is a block found in many ko-ryu that means essentially 'umbrella block' and uses the flat of the blade. In Niten Ichi Ryu, with which I am somewhat familiar, there is within the 12 kata of the Itto Seiho 2 that use this specific technique. Uke nagashi hidari and uke nagashi migi. Bringing this in line with Morihei Ueshiba o-sensei, under whom Sugano sensei studied, the 5th and 6th suburi show this technique although it is edge up. This may be a Morihei sensei adaptation for bokken. I wonder?? John

[Stephen]

I like the complete setup, esp the rabbit and the moon, one thing I like to point out to westerners, In Nippon they see a rabbit in the moon not a man.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Yes, I have been struggling to match the hamon with something known. Uma no ha is perhaps the closest. Everything becomes quite indistinct towards the kissaki. The boshi looks, jizo? kaeri katai? The ha is Nioideki. I can see some sections of mokume in the hada, and the hamon is kuichigaiba at one point. That's about the limit of my timorous adventure. The best thing is if I take it to the sensei this weekend and ask him (if it does not offend him) to tell me what he sees and to follow his eyes. Might write it down as he talks so that I can go back and ponder... :|

[nagamaki - Franco]

Oh, yes. Another question. My gut feeling inclines me to the latter, older period. How would you lay your money, gentlemen?

 

Hi, this tanto looks to be late Edo or possibly even Meiji, at least to these eyes there is nothing appearing in the images to suggest otherwise.

 

Hey! and just who are you calling a gentlemen

 

I know that tanto were not really produced in the Shinto Period

 

Hmm, I'm willing to guess that close to a third of the tanto for sale right now online are from the Shinto period. :?

[Aloof Pegasus]

John

 

As you probably know if you google "Inaba sensei/Kashima shin ryu" there's some dynamic illustrations of how the tsuba can help in establishing contact with your partner.

 

Philip Loftus

[Bugyotsuji]

The guy I got it from suggested I could throw the blade away and get a Tsunagi made instead. It seems a bit of a waste to chuck it. As you 'gentlemen' ( and ladies) were discussing it here I began to feel the faint hope that it might be a long-lost masterpiece.... sniff... 'nuff said.

 

The Habaki tends to get stuck in the Koikuchi; as you withdraw the blade from the saya the Mekugi does not hold the Tsuka, tsuba and seppa tight, possibly because of that double-yoker hole. I may ask an acquaintance to create a proper Mekugi-ana for it.

 

Many thanks everyone for your comments. You have stimulated the synapses enormously! I really am grateful.

 

 

PS Further random thoughts. In the case of this 'wooden' Tsuba, it looks the part, appearing to all the world like iron. Appearance box, check. It would also play a part, if the part was to stop slippage, as the surface is rough and chunky. It must have taken some time to create. Pehaps the original was lost and it was easier to make a close-looking replacement than to find a metal one exactly right. Or maybe the owner needed to sell the tsuba to make some money? Slip prevention box, check.

 

PPS When things became too bloody, bandages were wrapped around either the hand or the object to increase grip. (I'm thinking spears as well.)

 

PPPS It should be said that the purpose of the tsuba will tend to differ depending on whether the blade is primarily for stabbing or for slashing, I can imagine. My dictionary says that a tsuba is to 'protect' the hand but this must be mainly for katana and wakizashi, to stop an attacking blade travelling down your own blade, for example, whereas with tanto it must be more for grip, aided by a pushing palm heel behind. Interesting to note that there are two distinct Kanji for Tsuba, each meaning slightly different things!

[Brian]

Piers,

It looks to me like the whole thing is cobbled together from parts, and the blade altered to try and make it fit, and then afterwards the excess seppa and tsuba were made up to try and take up the gaps.

However the blade does look like it has potential.

Although I am not in favour of people adding mekugi ana, in this case where the nakago is already filed and altered, I think I would consider having the current hole filled with iron or lead, getting someone who knows their stuff to reshape the nakago a bit to look more natural, file in the yasurime and then put everything together tightly without so many seppa, and then drill a new mekugi ana. Re-patinate the nakago, and it should all look quite nice.

Just needs some basic shaping and filing to the nakago, and all should look quite ok.

I doubt the tsuba is very old. Maybe made up by someone when they needed something to take up the gap. There are leather and other tsuba out there, but I don't think this one has a long history.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for the thoughts, Brian. Yes, I think I will go down that road. It makes sense and it feels right.

[Jean]

Question, is it worth it?

[Bugyotsuji]

Question, is it worth it?

 

Probably not if I just sell it on as is, Jean, but I want to keep it for a bit, and I know the Shokunin who would do this for me; it would not cost much and would only take a few days. He would make a tsunagi for me at the same time. I might even have a search around for a little iron tsuba for it... some small project to keep me busy these cold winter days!

 

Oh, and I sorted out the natural order of the seppa at last! They look better now...

[Aloof Pegasus]

I think it would come up a treat, everything about it is charming, bit of a 'make and mend' project. Piers if it's not too much trouble pls post pics when it's to your satisfaction.

 

Philip Loftus

[Bugyotsuji]

I think it would come up a treat, everything about it is charming, bit of a 'make and mend' project. Piers if it's not too much trouble pls post pics when it's to your satisfaction.

 

Philip Loftus

 

With pleasure, Philip. Watch this space!

[Marius]

Piers,

 

To all intent and purpose, the tanto is a tsunagi, now that some idiot has tampered with it. Having the nakago reshaped and repatinated professionally will cost you as probably nearly much as a perfectly decent and undamaged entry-level tanto. eBay is full of such itesm, and they can be enjoyed, if you happend to have no access to hundreds of Juyo blades.

 

Keep it as it is, enjoy it as long as you will like it, keep if if you like it a tyear from now, but do not invest a penny into it. It is simply not worth it, koshirae has nice items but is cobbled together from what was at hand, tanto is damaged and out of polish.

 

Just my tuppence

[Brian]

I don't agree. I think the front of the blade looks charming and ok, especially with the hi.

The nakago doesn't need much work to clean up the shape. Could be done carefully with a file. Just needs the machi area shaped a bit.

The filling of the ana and drilling the new one isn't a big job. The main job is new yasurime and patination. And if you know someone....

Nah, this one is a tru project job, and I think would look great afterwards.

Note...I don't usually advocate working on a blade at all, but in this case since it appears a write off as is...I don't think you have much to lose.

Heck, on eBay someone would pay $500 as a project blade. We have seen that before

 

Brian

[Aloof Pegasus]

Mariuszk

 

Sugano sensei died of gangrene of the leg back in 2002/3!

 

Philip Loftus

[Bugyotsuji]

Just a quick follow-up on this tanto.

 

The whole Koshirae is typical of Higo, including the iron fuchi and kashira with spiral gold Zougan, and would have been made around the Bakumatsu period. The widened saya jiri is also typical of the period and of Higo. As if to back this up, I was also shown a short very similar Bashin also from Higo, the tsuka of that one elaborately decorated in gold zougan with Kuyo-Mon.

 

As to the Tsuba, it was probably made of black water buffalo horn which perished or was eaten by something. The two Suigyu sections of the Saya presented this suggestion. To have a new one made would be more trouble than it is worth; the stuff stinks and no-one likes to work in it, as with ivory. The blade is typical of work done between the Bakumatsu and before Showa 30, I was told. Probably Taisho, with Yaki. The brown spot was where the blade would have been in contact with a saya internally but could be removed easily with Togi. I have not asked for the Togi.

 

Unfortunately this is exactly the wrong time of year for generating the right kind of rust. For this reason it will take time. March would be better humidity. The Nakago will be tidied up in the way that Brian suggested, ie reshaping, piercing of a new hole and blockage (in copper, did he say?) of the old, application of Yasurime and aging, but it will take not days but months.

 

Please forget you ever read this thread, until maybe April.

[Brian]

...piercing of a new hole and blockage (in copper, did he say?) ...

No..not copper. Iron usually, but I have seen lead used, and this is the route I would go here.

I have a lead-filled mekugi ana on one of my swords.

 

Brian