Yoshimichi Nihonto ?

[Gardawg]

Hello All,  Firstly . . . I am a brand new member and a "Rookie" when it comes to all things Nihonto. So please bear with me if I make a mistake or use the wrong terms. Some background . . . Trained as an Industrial Machinist / Mechanic, so have a basic familiarity with the various trades. With this comes some exposure to heat-treat, fabrication and metallurgies. I also enjoy the arts / music and working in my shop.  I have always loved blades since I was a kid and have collected a few Gerbers, Pumas, & Ontario knives over the years. Last year saw most of us sitting at home with far too much time on our hands, I started watching lots of Martial Arts flics and something just "Clicked" . . . Which leads me here !

 

I have a few blades now and reading kenji script is not my strongest attribute. I had a friend in Japan translate this Mei but I cannot find a signature on line that closely matches this one. Is it a "Gimei" blade ?  Any help / insight would be greatly appreciated. I believe the Mei reads "Tanba No Kami Yoshimichi". The middle character seems to indicate it's from the Kyoto School with the 10 o'clock position. But, with 11 generations of Yoshimichi swordsmiths from both Kyoto and Osaka it's complicated.  The blade is 68 cm long with a rather slight Sori of 1.1 cm. The blade is in fabulous condition / polish and has a nice visible hamon. 

 

Thank You in advance for any and all help with this  . . . Please everyone  . . . Be Smart . . . Stay Healthy . . . & Stay Safe !  "The Journey Is The Thing"  . . . Cheer's,  "G"

[NewB]

Hello,

 

To me, it appears as gimei at a first glance. More photos of the kissaki, hada and better view angle of the nakago could help considerably but this is signed as tachi which I have never seen by the smith and the nakago jiri is a shape that I haven't seen by the smith also.

 

I may very well be wrong but as someone that collects Yoshimichi primarily I'd say it may very well be gimei.

 

Cheers

 

 

John

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Gimei agreed.  Looks nothing like mine and the hamon does not have the characteristic shape of a sudare-ba from these pictures

[Gardawg]

2 hours ago, Gardawg said:

Hello All,  Firstly . . . I am a brand new member and a "Rookie" when it comes to all things Nihonto. So please bear with me if I make a mistake or use the wrong terms. Some background . . . Trained as an Industrial Machinist / Mechanic, so have a basic familiarity with the various trades. With this comes some exposure to heat-treat, fabrication and metallurgies. I also enjoy the arts / music and working in my shop.  I have always loved blades since I was a kid and have collected a few Gerbers, Pumas, & Ontario knives over the years. Last year saw most of us sitting at home with far too much time on our hands, I started watching lots of Martial Arts flics and something just "Clicked" . . . Which leads me here !

 

I have a few blades now and reading kenji script is not my strongest attribute. I had a friend in Japan translate this Mei but I cannot find a signature on line that closely matches this one. Is it a "Gimei" blade ?  Any help / insight would be greatly appreciated. I believe the Mei reads "Tanba No Kami Yoshimichi". The middle character seems to indicate it's from the Kyoto School with the 10 o'clock position. But, with 11 generations of Yoshimichi swordsmiths from both Kyoto and Osaka it's complicated.  The blade is 68 cm long with a rather slight Sori of 1.1 cm. The blade is in fabulous condition / polish and has a nice visible hamon. 

 

Thank You in advance for any and all help with this  . . . Please everyone  . . . Be Smart . . . Stay Healthy . . . & Stay Safe !  "The Journey Is The Thing"  . . . Cheer's,  "G"

 

[Gardawg]

Below are few more close-up's of the blade . . .

 

 

[Gardawg]

[Gardawg]

It probably is a "Gimei" . . .  Many Thanks for your insight. If you gent's are collecting Yoshimichi and have experience with them, you will know far more than me.  I was reading that this practice of fake signatures has been an issue with Japanese swords for almost two hundred years and nothing new. It does pose a problem for newbies though. I didn't "sell the farm", so all is not lost. I'll learn as much as I can along the way and will look for "papered" items in the future !

[NewB]

10 hours ago, Gardawg said:

It probably is a "Gimei" . . .  Many Thanks for your insight. If you gent's are collecting Yoshimichi and have experience with them, you will know far more than me.  I was reading that this practice of fake signatures has been an issue with Japanese swords for almost two hundred years and nothing new. It does pose a problem for newbies though. I didn't "sell the farm", so all is not lost. I'll learn as much as I can along the way and will look for "papered" items in the future !

 

I see some Osaka Mishina traits but this is first time for me to see masame in the ha for the school. Also It looks like a well forged blade that may be worth researching more so nothing is lost. I also always recommend buying from trusted sources on the forum or at least share what you intend to purchase before you pull the trigger. Most of the knowledgeable folks that hang out here are kind enough to offer an opinion and direction.

 

 

John

[Jacques]

2 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

Gimei agreed.  Looks nothing like mine and the hamon does not have the characteristic shape of a sudare-ba from these pictures

 

 

Shodai Kyo Yoshimichi did not only do sudare ba, he also did suguha, choji, and gunome. 

 

Quote

I see some Osaka Mishina

 

The smith is claimed to be from Yamashiro kuni (see kanji Kami). Mei is a katana mei not a tachi one.

[ROKUJURO]

3 hours ago, Darkcon said:

..... this is signed as tachi ......

I think this is KATANA MEI. Together with the strange KANJI and the NAKAGO JIRI (looks uneven but that might be my old eyes and the angle of the photo)  I am not sure if this might possibly be an attempt of a non-Japanese smith.

[NewB]

To me the mei isn't the problem that much (tough to figure with the photo angle) but the nakago and the hada are nothing that resembles my papered (and unpapered) examples.

 

 

John

[NewB]

38 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

 

 

Shodai Kyo Yoshimichi did not only do sudare ba, he also did suguha, choji, and gunome. 

 

 

The smith is claimed to be from Yamashiro kuni (see kanji Kami). Mei is a katana mei not a tachi one.

I have read of 2 mishina schools - Kyoto and Osaka. Nothing further for the individual generations has been available to me at this point. 

 

 

John

[Gardawg]

More . . . I just did some careful measurements with my Vernier Calipers and here are the dimensions . . .

 

Blade Length - Nagasa = 68 cm

Blade Curviture - Sori = 1.1 cm

Habaki Blade Width - Moto Haba = 2.85 cm

Kisseki Blade Width - Saki Haba = 2.2 cm

Blade Thickness at Habaki - Motokasane = 0.72 cm

Blade Thickness at Kisseki - Sakikasane = 0.60 cm

Kisseki = approx. 4 cm long

 

I have several bayonets / knives and have seen bad forging, poor welds, fissures, cracks & gaping holes in steel. I have held and had the opportunity to closely inspect numerous swords over the decades and this "Mystery" blade is quite well done IMHO. The proportions / dimensions are close to other true Japanese blades and the workmanship upon close inspection (Jeweller's 16X loupe) tells me the blade is made from forged / folded steel. I'm not sure what the nicely burnished area atop the Kisseki Mune area is called but it is present and the blade is razor sharp too . . . Not sure if this sheds any light on things but now I'm curious to know the "W5" of it all !   "G"

[Mark S.]

Mei almost has that WW2 gunto mei style feel… not really carved strokes, more like ‘punched’ strokes… just doesn’t feel right to me.  

[Jacques]

18 hours ago, Darkcon said:

I have read of 2 mishina schools - Kyoto and Osaka. Nothing further for the individual generations has been available to me at this point. 

 

 

John

 

Look at the  picture below 

 

[NewB]

Thank you. That I am aware of.

 

 

John

[Geraint]

Dear GG.

 

If you can do a shot of the whole nakago, right way up that would help us here.

 

All the best.

[Gardawg]

 

Maybe This Will Help A Bit !

[NewB]

🤔

 

 

 

John

[Geraint]

Dear GG.

 

Yep, that certainly helps.  When you look at the nakago of a sword a lot of things come into play, not just the signature.  The nakago of your sword seems rather long and it does not taper very much, the end is rounded, what we might call kuri jiri and it has sloping file marks, sujikai yasurime.  The mei is positioned quite centrally on the nakago.

 

I'm sure you have been looking at a lot of sword by various generations of Yoshimichi, (side note; make sure you are comparing papered examples),  and generally you will see that the nakago is well shaped, tapering and ends in a crisply angled nakago jiri.  The mei often consists of quite large kanji but they are aligned toward the right of the nakago, often spilling over the shinogi line but not running down the centre as yours does.  These features indicate that your sword is gimei, before even comparing the way in which the kanji are cut. 

 

My apologies if all this is old news to you and, as has been said above, it doesn't mean that the sword is not interesting, just that you are going to have to identify a school based on other features of the sword.

 

Welcome to Wonderland!

 

All the best.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Geraint
Apparently I can't tell left from right!

[Jacques]

Quote

I'm sure you have been looking at a lot of sword by various generations of Yoshimichi, (side note; make sure you are comparing papered examples),  and generally you will see that the nakago is well shaped, tapering and ends in a crisply angled nakago jiri.  The mei often consists of quite large kanji but they are aligned toward the left of the nakago, often spilling over the shinogi line but not running down the centre as yours does

 

Different nakago from shodai Kyo Yoshimichi.

 

This sword is a bad gimei whatever the generation nothing else. 

[raaay]

looking  at the tang it looks strange  , is it my imagination ,  has it been heat treated  or in fire looks odd ,   a better photo might help ? .

 

sorry just my two pennies worth .